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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

What can you trust, FCP or Color for image results???

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BigLu

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Grading in Color
Sending back and fourth from FCP.
I have noticed my Color bars pluge is far off in difference when i view it in FCP vs Color
Which can i trust you can grade in FCP and correct how ever I cant trust my monitor at this time because the gamma looks so different.

Much brighter in FCP than in Color

Any ideas?
This is nuts.
 
You can trust a calibrated monitor via a video I/O card in both programs – but no computer monitor…
 
I have been told that an FW900 is not a great calibrated monitor yet its better than just a computer monitor when set up with an Eye1Eye calibrator. And it was acceptable for several years in 8bit, from what I understand.

The I/O would be ideal but i dont have one.
I need to understand which is more trustworthy FCP or Color on the same monitor they give different levels.

PLEASE Thank you.
 
FCP assumes a gamma of 1.8, while Color assumes 2.2 – you'll need to re-calibrate the monitors.
 
There are unexplained processes in FCP and Color that really confuse you to go back and force.

With some combined efforts and clear findings that Ms. Sato at Imagica taught me, I'm learning the natures of how Apple decided to handle RGB and YUV data back and forth.

Can't publicize how she find out because it's Imagica's intellectual property but we can probably share and recommend what to do for various processes.

So, I can say, you can trust both FCP and Color, but you have to choose right parameters and choices depending on whether you are using the desktop monitor or monitor through a video hardware, also, gamma treatment varies depending on you are working with RGB material or YUV material. We will continue our researches further and put together a white paper as soon as we have time (keep on getting feature film jobs). But for now, try throw questions at me on what materials and workflow you are working with (mainly with FCP and Color with various hardware), then I can try to answer you case by case.

Kaku


Edit: One thing to mention is that current FCP only handle picture with YUV, so Color would be more trusty if you compare. But you can just keep FCP to be editing without processing the color matters anyway.
 
BigLu said:
Grading in Color
Sending back and fourth from FCP.
I have noticed my Color bars pluge is far off in difference when i view it in FCP vs Color
Which can i trust you can grade in FCP and correct how ever I cant trust my monitor at this time because the gamma looks so different.

Much brighter in FCP than in Color

Any ideas?
This is nuts.
Click to expand...

Having written a couple Final Cut plug-ins, I'm not a big fan of RGB processing in Final Cut. Final Cut loves Ycbcr, and RGB processing is not the main focus of the application. If you are working with ProRes files converted from Red then you don't have to worry about this, because ProRes is Ycbcr color space. However, if you are working with Proxy Quicktime files, then I would not try to do any color correction in Final Cut Pro. Just do all your color correction and grading in Color and make that the reference point.
 
From my experience - if you use an I/O card, like an AJA, all will be well and right with the Gods of Gamma. Otherwise, you are at their mercy, and woe to the mortal who treads in their realm...

But you should do OK-ish if you set your computer monitor to 2.2 gamma when working in Color, and 1.8 gamma when working in FCP.
 
I feel theirs in answer in here somewhere.

Ok so here is my direct workflow and question then.

KaKu as you requested. BTW thank you KaKu ,Brad, nomad, & Charles

FCP and Color both the same set up.

I have a 24inch SGI aka Sony FW900 CRT monitor on my left as my preview monitor, calibrated with a GretagMacBeth EyeOne calibrator.
I use it full screen to display my FCP video and also to Display my Color Video when i switch back and fouth between FCP and Color it is a noticeable change in the Gamma value i see it in he Pluge on color bars best.
To the Right of that I have a 30inch Cinema Display which I have my timeline/bins for FCP and or Control panel for Color.

Both monitors are connected VGA to my Graphics card of an X1900 Radeon card on a MacPro tower.
Card is getting replaced by an Nvidia 8800 this week, my card is taking a huge CRAP.

Thank you guys.
 
Quicktime gamma is funky business. I agree with Brad...commit to using color exclusively , view with a calibrated monitor and at least it all of your footage will be in the same color space and referenced to one setup. That should be fine for many projecs

IMHO, For critical/high profile work, you might want to consider grading in a SCRATCH room which is professionally calibrated and run by an experienced colorist. You'll have much more control and, I think, end up with a better product. It'll also take much less time.
 
BigLu said:
FCP and Color both the same set up.

I have a 24inch SGI aka Sony FW900 CRT monitor on my left as my preview monitor, calibrated with a GretagMacBeth EyeOne calibrator.
I use it full screen to display my FCP video and also to Display my Color Video when i switch back and fouth between FCP and Color it is a noticeable change in the Gamma value i see it in he Pluge on color bars best.
To the Right of that I have a 30inch Cinema Display which I have my timeline/bins for FCP and or Control panel for Color.

Both monitors are connected VGA to my Graphics card of an X1900 Radeon card on a MacPro tower.
Card is getting replaced by an Nvidia 8800 this week, my card is taking a huge CRAP.

Thank you guys.
Click to expand...

What you are seeing is normal because you are using second monitor option on the Mac to feed your CRT monitor. Each application can configure the color space and mess up the gamma.

The best way to avoid gamma shifts is by sending the signal out an HD-SDI card (AJA or Blackmagic) and feed it to an external monitor. This is the only path I trust because I can measure the HD-SDI signal independently. I usually create a series of test patterns and measure the signal coming out the HD-SDI port. If the gamma isn't right coming out HD-SDI, then you know which application is causing the problem.

The key is to have an independent way of measuring the output from both Color and Final Cut Pro. Using the second monitor option for Color correction is very difficult to independently measure.
 
Louise,

You are using the video board to display the second monitor for the viewer (FW900), so I believe it is displaying at 1.8 gamma. I assume you calibrated both monitors with i1 at 2.2 right? If so, what happens it that in FCP, since FCP forces to display materials at 2.2, you have x 1.2222 gamma applied, so it ends up at 2.68ish. Then in Color, if you are working with RGB material, say you are working with raw R3D and start grading from there, then FW900 set to 2.2 would be good, since Color displays gamma at 1.8.
Since you mention footage going back and forth between the FCP and Color, I assume you're rendering to QT instead of DPX, then Apple Color shifts gamma during the process (this finding is courtesy of Ms. Sato at Imagica), so you would want to change the clips' master gamma to 0.818181 so the gamma becomes 2.2.

Again in FCP, you would want your display to be set to 1.8, since FCP forces 2.2.

Color and FCP treats the gamma on YUV or RGB material accordingly at import and export, that throws us off. So try to unify the color format on the timeline, so things don't get confusing.
 
Hello Brad,

I thought the HDSDI out of Blackmagic would be 2.2 but it wasn't.
In Color the Multibridge Pro is outputting 1.8 (or rather, it outputs without changing the gamma) then upon exporting DPX it applies gamma 2.2 (this finding is courtesy of Ms. Sato at Imagica/click here for their web). So what we wanna do is to set the blackmagic LUT to show 2.2 (set the gamma value at 1.22), so you would be working with 2.2 LUT but the data stays at 1.8 internally, then upon export, Color automatically multiply gamma at 1.222 so the material becomes 2.2.

I'd say these problems could be solved with Snow Leopard and new FCS, but until then, we'd have to handle things manually.
 
WOAHHHHHH!
Thanks
Im gonna read this every day twice a day until i understand it.
Thanks guys.
 
I noticed a couple of things with Color. When I export AJA RGB I get a different gamma to when I export Apple 10bit uncompressed. Also...

If I import a 10bit uncompressed movie and also an R3D then take a still of the uncompressed movie in the still store, the still will shift in brightness when viewed with the R3D file.
 
Kaku Ito said:
Hello Brad,

I thought the HDSDI out of Blackmagic would be 2.2 but it wasn't.
In Color the Multibridge Pro is outputting 1.8 (or rather, it outputs without changing the gamma) then upon exporting DPX it applies gamma 2.2 (this finding is courtesy of Ms. Sato at Imagica/click here for their web). So what we wanna do is to set the blackmagic LUT to show 2.2 (set the gamma value at 1.22), so you would be working with 2.2 LUT but the data stays at 1.8 internally, then upon export, Color automatically multiply gamma at 1.222 so the material becomes 2.2.

I'd say these problems could be solved with Snow Leopard and new FCS, but until then, we'd have to handle things manually.
Click to expand...

That's a great solution. Testing through HD-SDI allows the signal to be measured through many different ways. Which way did you have Color + the Blackmagic card configured when you did the measurement? Was it desktop emulation mode, or was Color directly feeding the HD-SDI port. I can see the wrong gamma in desktop extension mode, but it absolutely should not be displaying the wrong gamma when directly feeding the signal out HD-SDI. That's a major design flaw with Color.

Essentially, RGB to Rec 709 conversion should always produce the exact same results in any application. There should be no additional gamma or color correction changes applied. Red 1.0 + Blue 1.0 + Green 1.0 = the same value no matter what application you use.
 
BradWright said:
Essentially, RGB to Rec 709 conversion should always produce the exact same results in any application. There should be no additional gamma or color correction changes applied. Red 1.0 + Blue 1.0 + Green 1.0 = the same value no matter what application you use.
Click to expand...

Or very close - I do think different apps use different algorithms.

For the OP:

Calibrate your computer monitor to gamma 2.2 for using Color.
Calibrate your computer monitor to gamma 1.8 for using Final Cut.

Use a KONA and a broadcast monitor whenever possible. (No affiliation with AJA, just used their stuff with good results).
 
Brad and Charles,

You both have explained clearly and have understanding for the nature of Mac based system.

We had calibrated our D24 by Imagica with their measurement device (the one that looks like a camera) with their special softwware to see the color balance and the gamma level. I also have KonicaMinolta CA210Plus on our own, so I can record the neutral white that Imagica had set, then I can check to see if it got off time to time.

To check the gamma curve, Imagica had brought a special DPX files that they created. They don't publicize these files but they offer monitor calibration using this method when you use their lab to print films.

Brad, one thing is that with Multibridge Pro, when you switch between YUV out and RGB out, the brightness changes (haven't checked what are exactly changing) on HDSDI and brightness and the color balance changes on HD analog component out. Multibrdige Pro doesn't seem to work well in RGB out selection in the Color, when you choose its RGB choice then darkens output, then it makes different output (file wise) from how it is outputting the signal. So, it's good to know that RGB and REC709 should look the same because depending on some products, switching between RGB and YUV look different in, say, FCP, but then it is probably affected by the timeline settings (like the color process) and the image sequence importing selection for the gamma.
 
Kaku Ito said:
Brad and Charles,

Brad, one thing is that with Multibridge Pro, when you switch between YUV out and RGB out, the brightness changes (haven't checked what are exactly changing) on HDSDI and brightness and the color balance changes on HD analog component out. Multibrdige Pro doesn't seem to work well in RGB out selection in the Color, when you choose its RGB choice then darkens output, then it makes different output (file wise) from how it is outputting the signal. So, it's good to know that RGB and REC709 should look the same because depending on some products, switching between RGB and YUV look different in, say, FCP, but then it is probably affected by the timeline settings (like the color process) and the image sequence importing selection for the gamma.
Click to expand...

8 bit RGB + 8 bit Ycbcr = full color in 10 bit HD-SDI

RGB to Rec 709 HD-SDI should always get encoded the same way. If an application or hardware device doesn't follow the standard, I would not recommend using it. You shouldn't have to fix it with any additional LUTs.

If you have an 8 bit RGB and 8 bit Ycbcr image in the same timeline, you can in theory, convert both into 10 bit HD-SDI without color clamping. 10 bits of RGB won't fit into 10 bits Ycbcr, so it's at the up to application to convert it correctly. No changes in gamma, or brightness should happen in the conversion process. You may see color banding, but you should not see any changes in the image brightness.

Having written a couple of Final Cut Pro plug-ins, I would not recommend color correcting RGB based material in Final Cut in it's current form. Stay with YUV based processing and Ycbcr material and leave the color correction to Color.
 
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