Measuring focus with the Red.

[Patrick Kaplin]

Hello,

I will be having my first Red shoot coming up in the next month and I was just wondering. What is your method for getting focus marks with the Red?

Do you use the trusty tape measure? If so, does the Red have a film plane symbol to measure to?

Or do you monitor focus with the LCD screen making marks on your FF for moving shots?

I'd like to get a preferred method from some of you Redusers and Red ACs out there!

Thanks in advance.

 

[Shawn Booth]

Focus for RED is same as on film - assuming you have checked focus/back focus on your lenses.

 

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Yes, it does have a film plane symbol.

 

[Frank Mirbach]

We use that little focus hook provided by Red. Same as with a film camera.

Frank

 

[Patrick Kaplin]

Thanks all, good to know!

 

[michael zaletel]

I just put a focus chart exactly 10' feet (or some exact distance marked on my lens) away from the RED's focus plane using the Monstercine focus hook ($56):

http://www.monstercine.com/

Then I set the focus ring on my lens to 10' (or whatever) and then adjust the back focus adjustment until the chart is in PERFECT focus using 200% enlarge on Red and 200% enlarge on my Panasonic BT-LH80 monitor with (focus in red) feature making sure everything still perfect when I tighten back up the hex on the back focus.

While shooting I depend heavily on either pre-marked focus points measured with tape measure from focus hook or on the (focus in red) feature on my Panasonic monitor which allows 200% zoom while shooting and then use a second monitor for composition. Focus is flawless using the above methodology.

Please don't underestimate the value of the real-time, red-fringe feedback with 200% zoom while shooting that the Panasonic monitor provides for achieving perfect focus throughout a complicated pan, tilt or track dolly shot. There really is no other way nail focus like that without time-consuming markings and that's IF talent and dolly grip hits their marks perfectly. I don't care how long an AC has been doing this, if talent or grip misses mark on a shot (especially a close-up using a long lens), the eyelashes WILL be out of focus if AC is depending upon a 7" LCD alone. With focus-in-red, you can truly Focus your RED.

7.9” Panasonic BT-LH80W HD/SD 16:9 LCD EVF/Monitor w. SDI/HD-SDI
Focus assist with "Focus-in-Red" (the outlines turn red when sharp focus is achieved) )

-shooter
(michael zaletel)

 

[Steve Gibby]

Depending on the needs of the genres you're shooting, crew composition, aperture you're shooting at, and equipment setup, you can focus RED One either using the traditional methods mentioned above, or alternately focus by eye, using 1:1 image magnification, and focus assist if needed.

Wide open aperture shots below 2.8 obviously lend themselves best to traditional focusing, but some f2.8 shots, and most more stopped down from there, are quite focusable via eye.

The preferred focusing method on RED One depends on the genre of production you're shooting, lenses and accessories you need to use to get the shots, and the experience level and skill sets of the crew doing the shooting.

 

[michael zaletel]

Hi Steve:

Since 1:1 magnification and 200% enlarge are not available once the record button is pressed, how would "even the very best crew" be able to accurately follow focus by eye on moving camera shots and moving talent shots if marks are missed? If the 2nd AC is watching a 7" monitor, how would they be able to see whether mark was missed and eyebrows, hair, plants or water out-of-focus without a tool like the Panasonic monitor allowing 200% preview and "focus-in-red" edge highlighting? Granted, the very best AC's have been doing this for decades but from what I've read, even the best often miss focus on these shots (when measured marks missed by grip or cast) which is why many are so anxious when screening dailies because they will either be the hero or zero if the "money-shot" is in or out of focus.

I'm not suggesting technology should be a crutch for talent and experience but there really are some things that just were not humanly possible (except perhaps with an amazing sixth sense for distance adjustments) before tools like these came along to assist. I think it's safe to say there are very few people that could accurately adjust follow focus mid-shot on a moving camera shot where marks missed without some image enlargement, a larger display monitor, focus-in-red or some distance measuring tool.

All the above said, you have much more field experience shooting film and Red footage than I do and so you've seen this done without these tools? Looking back, what do you think enabled those AC's to turn the crank 1 cm past their mark because they just knew something was off even when they didn't have a monitor at all? In other words, what other techniques can you share that we should also learn for the many situations where crew is limited?

-shooter

(michael zaletel)
(michael Zaletel)

 

[Noah Kadner]

Yeah IMHO- it's all about having an experienced AC with a tape measure. Tho the big big boys often use this:

http://www.cinematographyelectronics.com/cine_tape_measure.htm

-Noah

 

[Steve Gibby]

Hi Steve:

Since 1:1 magnification and 200% enlarge are not available once the record button is pressed, how would "even the very best crew" be able to accurately follow focus by eye on moving camera shots and moving talent shots if marks are missed? If the 2nd AC is watching a 7" monitor, how would they be able to see whether mark was missed and eyebrows, hair, plants or water out-of-focus without a tool like the Panasonic monitor allowing 200% preview and "focus-in-red" edge highlighting? Granted, the very best AC's have been doing this for decades but from what I've read, even the best often miss focus on these shots (when measured marks missed by grip or cast) which is why many are so anxious when screening dailies because they will either be the hero or zero if the "money-shot" is in or out of focus.

I'm not suggesting technology should be a crutch for talent and experience but there really are some things that just were not humanly possible (except perhaps with an amazing sixth sense for distance adjustments) before tools like these came along to assist. I think it's safe to say there are very few people that could accurately adjust follow focus mid-shot on a moving camera shot where marks missed without some image enlargement, a larger display monitor, focus-in-red or some distance measuring tool.

All the above said, you have much more field experience shooting film and Red footage than I do and so you've seen this done without these tools? Looking back, what do you think enabled those AC's to turn the crank 1 cm past their mark because they just knew something was off even when they didn't have a monitor at all? In other words, what other techniques can you share that we should also learn for the many situations where crew is limited?

-shooter

(michael zaletel)
(michael Zaletel)

You're talking about narrative cinema production, and I'm not. Wide open and shooting narrative below f2.8, traditional measured focus is definitely the way to go. But there are a wide variety of genres shot with RED One (and Epic/Scarlet to come) which involve cinematography that is done at apertures of f4 up to maybe f11, where there is no talent per se, DOF desired is deeper, and there is no "rehearsing shots" or "hitting marks". Some of those genres: documentaries of various types, sports, some music productions, nature, travel, cultures, business video, wildlife, many types of stock footage, and on and on and on.

We're talking mobile, hybrid, non-hardlined cine/EFP production techniques of cinematography, with small, mobile crews - where there is no AC on the crew (and no video village), and shooters eye focus using 1:1 image magnification, and zooms are quite often used because you don't have the time, or it is flat out dangerous, to move to each framing. There is a whole different mind set - and skill sets - involved with this type of camera work.

Experienced pro-level shooters who track objects and subjects in this style of cinematography for a living, become really adept at "anticipatory" focusing, rather than "reactive" focusing for the subjects they shoot - and at the apertures from f4 to f11 they work in, anticipatory eye focusing is very workable in 4k on RED by an experienced shooter.

The "big boys" in narrative have their tried and proven ways to shooting for their genre - but the "big boys" in a wide range of genres I described above have their tried and proven ways of shooting for their genres too.

Narrative is just one genre of cinematography in a wide variety of cinematography styles and techniques. I think that fact gets lost and overlooked here on RED User, and in the industry at large.

RED One (and Epic/Scarlet to come), has been, is now, and will be used in a wide variety of production genres. There is no "best" way to use RED cameras - just a "best" way for each genre you shoot with them.

 

[michael zaletel]

Great points, as always, Steve. I sit corrected.

-shooter
(michael zaletel)

 

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks Michael...happy to help...

One of the really cool things about RED One (and Epic/Scarlet to come) that attracted me to them, is their versatility and broad utility. Essentially they become what you lens and accessorize them to be - so they can be serious creative tools (and revenue generating machines!) if you approach them that way.

Everyone has their own professional dreams and goals - but if your maximize the potential of these cameras to generate more income - you may just get to your dream goals faster! Its a great idea for someone who is intent on being a narrative cinematographer to fill gaps in their production schedule with non-narrative work. It will spread their experience and skill sets - and potentially generate the needed income to propel them faster to their true dream - especially in these hard economic times. It just involves re-thinking your approach to using and accessorizing the camera, and some learning time for mastering the added skill sets - then you're on your way!

Just a thought...

 

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

Yeah IMHO- it's all about having an experienced AC with a tape measure. Tho the big big boys often use this:

http://www.cinematographyelectronics.com/cine_tape_measure.htm

-Noah

I always thought about this... Glad to know that is exists.

Next move is a device like this "connected" to the lens for automatic focus pulls.

Perhaps RED cameras could read the information from a device like this and automatically focus to that point (Electronic Lenses and Fixed Scarlet) or Impero/Inclino for cine lenses.

 

[Joel Kaye]

Impero/Inclino for cine lenses.

Impero is supposed to be scriptable at some point, so that could be used to create automatic focus pulls. I'm sure Hollywood has some type of solution already. I was told Panic Room was largely programmed cameras.

For the record, I have great luck eye focusing with edge focus assist for narrative. I think narrative is easier than truly wild shooting. I shot a rock concert Saturday from different positions near the stage with no real marks. To me that's pretty close to as tough as it gets outside of jib moves or converging camera and talent.

 

[Steve Gibby]

I like what you pointed out Joel...

Edge focus assist can be a very good tool for narrative work - and many other genres where you have time in setups to use it.

Reference the rock concert...I agree. The entire camera crew of the rock band Journey concert I was DP for earlier this month, consisted of experienced eye focus cinematographers - on 10 RED cameras. There is no way to fully anticipate the movements of band members, and obviously they don't hit "marks", thus our cinematographers needed to be skilled at anticipatory eye focusing - on the fly - with constantly and rapidly changing subject matter and lighting - for a full two and one half hour concert - with no breaks between songs.

It was about as challenging of cinematography as you can do with RED - and all the cinematographers nailed it really well! A narrative experience only cinematographer, who was only used to marks, having a focus puller, and traditional camera techniques, would have been absolutely bewildered in that environment. Its a whole different array of skill sets you need for non-scripted, non-repeatable cinematography.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I echo Gibby's point about anticipatory focusing, as well as framing BTW, when shooting in uncontrolled situations. FWIW its always better to lead a bit in framing and let the talent walk in to focus rather then out.

Tricks: I look at the entire body of the subject; which foot do they have the majority of their weight on - this makes it easier to guess which direction they are about to move? Where are the natural spots to stop on a stage?
Keep a very tight frame during rehearsals so you can more easily see focus in the EVF, then during the show when the director calls for looser framing you already have a sense of where focus is.

One of the key skills to develop is a feel for the pace of rotation of the focus ring that matches the expected movement of the subject, be it a person walking or a golf ball flying.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Well said Blair...

In those situations I use the same techniques. Once you figure out a formula that works well, you go with it, and extemporize and tweak it on the fly as you go. Kinda like rubbing your stomach, patting your head, chewing gum, and walking across the street - all at once

 

[Joel Kaye]

One of the key skills to develop is a feel for the pace of rotation of the focus ring that matches the expected movement of the subject, be it a person walking or a golf ball flying.

Right. My experience is most stuff has a rhythm. Especially narrative moves... so they are actually kinda easy compared to tracking an animal, for instance.

I'm guessing anyone who can play a musical instrument would be able to handle this stuff pretty well since it's about the same skillset overall.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Right. My experience is most stuff has a rhythm. Especially narrative moves... so they are actually kinda easy compared to tracking an animal, for instance.

Yup...progressively tracking, framing, exposing, and focusing the unpredictable movements of wildlife and sports objects/people in 4k, or even 3k is a challenge. Experienced cinematographers in those genres need to have natural aptitude for it, the ability to lock onto objects like radar and perform all those camera functions as they also pan, tilt, pull, and push - and also then just practice it a lot. When you see smooth, well-shot, radar-tracking like footage of unpredictable, high-motion subject matter like that, its just real pleasing to the eye. The cinematographers of NFL Films and top-level wildlife productions are good examples of cinematographers with those skill sets.

Those who have never tried that type of cinematography experience a rude awakening when they do...they quickly acquire a newfound respect for those alternative cinematography skill sets.