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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The American Form of Government

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Good to read the following... and understand the misleading arguments and the propaganda...

About Solon...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solon

Te Athenian democracy has its peak with Pericles in the 4bc and it was based in Solon 's philosophy of the law... Solon was lived in 6bc almost 200 years before Pericles...

About Pericles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pericles

About Democracy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

Athenian democracy was based in the power of people in forming laws and the freedom was well established...

In the current republic style, the democracy is covered by few, that can be bought from the various lobby's and act freely against people...

For me democracy is in the middle... both sides are bad... oligarchy and republic are bad...

I don't thing that even in modern Greece or UK or France we have the real democracy... its more like republic...

We vote for (in Greece) 300 senators that then, they acting as 4 parties that vote as four persons with different power... so no democracy... if we vote for 300 then I expect to have 300 to vote for me, NOT just 4 parties...

In that way it is very easy for the oligarchy to penetrate the parties (by lobbyist and bravery) and make the parliament to legislate as they wish... so the Law that governs the republic to be in favor of them... as well as the judges that are appointed by them...

So in order to have democracy I want to see parliament to do ONLY secret voting and not by the raise of hand or by name, in order the parties NOT to be able to control the senators... and I want to see senators to have a maximum political life of 4 years... so no more Politician by profession...
 
That video reminded me of the card trick where the dealer shuffles the cards and manipulates the action in such a way the outcome will always be the one desired.

Pretty contrived, if you asked me.
 
"We come a long way since we were 13 individual states, moving closer to the ideal, "justice for all.""

Several million dead indians can agree we've come a long way.

The American rulers have turned their aggression outward, to empire. They no longer need to "oppress" the "homeland" as in the past, and can concentrate on "new markets" as in Iraq. This may change, as economic calamity has a way of spurring unrest.

I think this democracy v. republic drivel is a distraction from much more important realities. Kakistocracy, rule by the worst.

The "military industrial complex" got a mention. I wonder who can quote Eisenhower's warning in full without looking it up.

There is no legal accountability for the highest level criminals (particularly executive branch). Numerous felonies go unpunished by the protection racket in Washington DC. There is one set of laws for high level insiders, and a completely different set of laws, standards, procedures for the rest. This is inarguable.

"Impeachment is off the table." -House Majority "leader" Nancy Pelosi (D), parroted by John Conyers(D), chair of the House Judiciary Committee
 
mail4joeg said:
"We come a long way since we were 13 individual states, moving closer to the ideal, "justice for all.""

Several million dead indians can agree we've come a long way.

The American rulers have turned their aggression outward, to empire. They no longer need to "oppress" the "homeland" as in the past, and can concentrate on "new markets" as in Iraq. This may change, as economic calamity has a way of spurring unrest.

I think this democracy v. republic drivel is a distraction from much more important realities. Kakistocracy, rule by the worst.

The "military industrial complex" got a mention. I wonder who can quote Eisenhower's warning in full without looking it up.

There is no legal accountability for the highest level criminals (particularly executive branch). Numerous felonies go unpunished by the protection racket in Washington DC. There is one set of laws for high level insiders, and a completely different set of laws, standards, procedures for the rest. This is inarguable.

"Impeachment is off the table." -House Majority "leader" Nancy Pelosi (D), parroted by John Conyers(D), chair of the House Judiciary Committee
Click to expand...

I certainly agree on a couple of your points, but the genocide of the Native Americans occurred a very long time ago. I stated that we have come a long way; indeed we have.

Despite the retrenchment of civil rights under the Bush cabal, we are getting closer to justice for all. We've come a long, long way since Selma. I know. I was there.

You may also recall that George Bush was NOT elected by a majority of Americans; a fact which also bolsters my argument against states-rights.

Finally, I believe words carry more weight when spoken by those not hiding behind a pseudonym. Please, have the courage to use your real name when standing up for your opinion.

Best regards,

Leo
 
Because it seems all of the icons are screwed up right now. I'm getting blue quote buttons.

And I wouldn't say that the US has any imperial ambition with Iraq. Look up what the word imperial means. The US has no interest in occupying foreign nations. I'm certain everybody on every side of American politics can agree we would much rather be gone than stay and iradicate the local population.

Interestingly enough the Native Americans were a large source of inspiration for the constitution.

Also to say that the states were supposed to be this loose federation of independent nations protecting one another completely sweeps aside the other half which strongly was fighting for weak states and a strong federal government.

We have a pretty balanced compromise right now. That's the compromise we largely agreed upon hundreds of years ago. The constitution was written so that both sides could say they won. That's why it was such an excellent compromise document.

Anyone who says the constitution was strongly biased one way or the other is projecting their own political bias onto the document. Both sides of the argument fought bitterly for their position. And both sides were relatively happy with the outcome. That tells you that neither side came out victorious then... and it's only mildly oscillated since.

We're a representative democracy. We're a constitutional republic. We have a strong federal government and we have a strong state government.

But most importantly we have seperation of power. We have a oligarchical executive branch. A democratic congress and an independent judicial branch to make sure neither of the other two break the constution. The last point being the really amazing and innovative governing break through. The idea that all laws must live up to a greater standard and if so failing can be rendered invalid.
 
Leo Ticheli said:
--clip--

What's the advantage of a patch-work quilt of individual state laws? Why should what's legal in Ohio be against the law in Mississippi? Why have 50 state constitutions? I'm certain it's good for the fortunes of lawyers; is that not sufficient damnation?

--clip--

Best regards,

Leo
Click to expand...

States were designed to compete with each other for population. The state that put up the best laws would prosper and attract more people.

Also, keep in mind that when the Constitution was written the states taxed and remitted to the Feds what was due, the states got the money first and the Feds never sent any money back. If the state was mismanaged (like Alabama or California) the people only had to look to the state government to find who was responsible and do something about it. Nowadays everyone is obsessed with the Feds because they claim to be responsible for everything. Three quarters of the country can't even name their governor and expect President Obama to fix education (which is as local as you can get).
 
Bob Gruen said:
States were designed to compete with each other for population. The state that put up the best laws would prosper and attract more people.
Click to expand...

That's a lovely free market notion, until you actually look at the ways state do in fact compete. In real life, they compete to offer companies like Walmart the biggest subsidies, the lowest wages, the lowest taxes and the most anti-union business climate, for the benefit of local pols and the Chamber of Commerce.

The result is, large areas of the country with lousy schools, non-existent social services, high crime rates and high levels of teenage and out-of-wedlock pregnancies, which in turn creates enormous burdens for the taxpayers in the high-tax prosperous states, like New York and California.

Even assuming that adults could pick up and move whenever they wanted to - which is demonstrably untrue -- and that the more socially progressive states could absorb the influx (also impossible) what about the kids growing up poor in these regions? Do we really want to condemn millions of Americans to life-long poverty, in order to sustain a "states rights" fantasy?
 
"And I wouldn't say that the US has any imperial ambition with Iraq."

Well, you wouldn't say it, but that's why the US is there.

"Look up what the word imperial means. The US has no interest in occupying foreign nations."

Condescend much? Chalmers Johnson has the details on "...our global empire of over 800 military bases." Sorry to break the news to you, but we've been an imperial power (and militarily present in numerous countries) for most of the last century. You just don't understand the issue. I could suggest much reading.

" I'm certain everybody on every side of American politics can agree we would much rather be gone than stay and iradicate the local population."


Not sure if that's irradiate (with uranium munitions by the ton), or eradicate (which isn't synonymous with "occupy", and therefore an odd response).

The point is control. Control of resources, at the barrel of a gun as they once said. Today, it's with aircraft carriers, drones, guided missiles, lasers and of course, the unsaid threat of nuclear atrocity. The big stick.

Your rah-rah civics from grammar school are fairy tales for children:

"But most importantly we have seperation of power. We have a oligarchical executive branch. A democratic congress and an independent judicial branch to make sure neither of the other two break the constution. "

They "break the constitution" all the time. Nothing is done about it.


"The last point being the really amazing and innovative governing break through. The idea that all laws must live up to a greater standard and if so failing can be rendered invalid."


That's the idea, not the practice. Did you notice they just stole the entire nation's wealth, and the wealth of several generations more, in broad daylight? Your fairy tale "democracy" and "republic" is not going to survive this type of onslaught. This is fascism being engineered. Crises are created so as to be exploited.

Empire (which you claim doesn't exist) is costly. You will be paying more of the costs now. That's the way it goes.

Call it an ignorance tax.
 
mail4joeg said:
Did you notice they just stole the entire nation's wealth, and the wealth of several generations more, in broad daylight? Your fairy tale "democracy" and "republic" is not going to survive this type of onslaught. This is fascism being engineered. Crises are created so as to be exploited.

Empire (which you claim doesn't exist) is costly. You will be paying more of the costs now. That's the way it goes.

Call it an ignorance tax.
Click to expand...

Glad to see that there is someone else on here that sees what's going on. All this shit that's going down is far from an accident. This is all the FED's fault, they are behind it all. The name of the game here is to de-value the dollar so bad that they can start a new currency. But of course before they go and do that they are going to seize gold just like they did during the great depression.

History repeats its self only because people can't believe that they are as stupid as the people were back a couple thousand years ago...or even 65 years for that matter.
 
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