Clarifications...

[David Battistella]

I think it was - just notice the "trail" of the white paint he used to "erase" the previous frames, especially visible when the subjects move across the wall...

Kudos to him and his team! True genius...

www.blublu.org is the artist who takes months to create the films.

David

 

[Clint Johnson]

Like Steve Jobs said about the NeXT computer: "6 months late? Are you kidding? This thing is 10 years ahead of it's time!"

Turns out, actually, that it was 20 years ahead...

Chris

So you're saying I should dig that $20,000 paper weight out of storage and get it working again... 'cause its time has come?

Like NeXT #1911, Red #351 is something I won't forget. Hopefully the Red experience will have a happier outcome.

 

[Michael Hastings]

That's an exaggeration -- more like "met with extreme skepticism".

Most industry people knew that adapting DSLR RAW technology into a digital cinema camera was coming down the road -- you already had the Arri-D20 and Dalsa in existence before the RED ONE, so the camera hardly appeared out of thin air with no precedent. Dalsa already was doing 4K RAW recording, just without no compression scheme.
...

I also wonder in the long term, in the historical sense, if it really would have mattered if the camera came out six months to a year later and a lot further along in its development. Of course, there is the "fun" factor in being a part of the public development of a new system and workflow, but it is also risky.

David:

I think your comments are spot on. I don't mean to belittle the accomplishment, and I am extremely happy with my SN206 and glad I was an early adopter. But with that said, I wasn't at all skeptical when I walked into the RED booth at NAB 2006. As you mention with DSLR technology, I didn't look at it as "how can they do this for 17K when sony and the others are all in the $100K plus range? I looked at it as "sure they can: Canon makes a DSLR for a thousand dollars that does all this and more except only 6 or 7 frames a second - in a very cramped SLR form factor - so RED has another $16.5K to get it to 24 frames (or more) and they can make it whatever size they need to to accommodate the somewhat off the shelf FGPAs, DSPs and other circuitry required, and they didn't have to do autofocus/autoiris etc. like a DSLR.

And the price was dramatically lower than "traditional" alternatives. In a way it was the old Newtek Video toaster strategy (don't be insulted RED, no analogy is perfect) where you price dramatically lower than the industry leaders, the audacity and the price itself creates a lot of buzz/free advertising, and then you literally make it up on volume. If RED had offered it at the more "reasonable" (but still very competitive) price of $50K they probably wouldn't have even presold 50 units - it was the extremely low price and therefore low risk that got me and others to jump on board in volume. As far as cost versus price, if by comparison, Dalsa and Arri looked at it and said we'll make 50 or 100 of our $100K to $200K cameras that is effectively $10 or $20 million dollars, yet even 2000 REDs (I think orders are well over 3000) is $35 million plus probably half again as much in accessory sales. I imagine the unit cost of 2000 mysteriums is only 10 or 20 percent of the unit cost if you only ordered 50 or 100 of them. And all of the other parts get similar cost savings when you go from 10s/100s to thousands. And your point about timing is spot on as well - all of us to this point have been beta testers (even Jim seems to feel build 16 is the point where the camera comes out of beta) - yet if it is say 1200 of us that have taken delivery so far that's $30 million or so in revenue during this beta period which is nothing to sneeze at - I believe I saw somewhere that is about the annual revenue of Ikegami.

Robert Heinlein used to say "when it's time to railroad you railroad" about how technologies seem to come together to a point where some things are inevitable. I wasn't skeptical because I don't need to be skeptical - as an independent producer doing mostly nature and travel type shoots I don't have a lot of other things riding on it, yet if I were a DP like yourself, or a major motion picture producer, it would be wise to be skeptical - because so much more is riding on it.

Again, this is not to belittle the effort, it still took a good team and an entrepreneur with the vision and the chutzpah to do it - and I salute Jim and the RED team - the pricing/marketing/development strategy RED used is probably the only way I would have been able to afford this level of camera without having to wait another 5 years. And by the way it has been fun. It was almost like 500 of us got together and said we can't afford F900s let's just put all our money together and make our own, but instead it was Jim and the RED team that said "hey give us a $1000 to show us that you WILL spend 17.5K if we build it and we'll do it."

 

[DanWood]

What went wrong with Sony?

I have looked at the specs for Sony F35 and RED. I can tell you Sony has superios specs. But Sony has NO buyers. What went wrong with Sony? Answer is the 'Marketing Genius' of Jim. Jim priced RED at 17K whereas the superior SONY is priced at 250K and it is sitting on the shelf. According to their marketing director, they have sold only 2 so far to their own subsidiary!
RED has triumphed over and killed off Sony in this market. That is for sure.

Advice for SONY: If you want to succeed in this business, hire Jim as your marketing director. Jim should be spelled with a G for Genius (or may be Genius should be spelled with a J for Jim).

Kudos to Jim.

I am quoting Sony's specifications below: (Sony uses a CCD sensor which eliminates the motion artifacts.)

"Sony is introducing the F35 camera system, which features a 35mm CCD image sensor, 10-bit, 4:4:4 recording and a PL mount, among other features designed for cinematographers.

The new camera will join the F23 model at the high-end of the company’s CineAlta™ line of acquisition products for digital television and motion picture content creation.

“The F35 complements the F23, with both addressing very distinct production environments and applications,” said Rob Willox, director of Sony Electronics’ content creation group. “We realize that many customers prefer a 35mm large-format sensor, while others want the 2/3-inch sensor size of the F23. As with all our camera technologies, we want to give end users their choice of production tools.”

The new camera incorporates many of the F23’s ergonomics and “film-style” design elements. For example, Sony’s SRW-1 digital recorder will dock directly to the top or to the tail of the new system, eliminating the need for cumbersome cable handling between the camera and recorder. The camera body will also be compatible with a variety of film camera accessories, including bridge plates, matte boxes and follow focus units.

The new camera adds several new features, many the direct result of feedback from production professionals.

Dynamic range is extended to from 700 percent to 800 percent, and an improved signal-to-noise ratio allows users to obtain more “quiet” black even during dark scenes.

The new camera can capture RGB, 4:4:4 1080/50P content, making it ideal for RGB composition of visual effects work. Its variable frame rate capability allows users to capture and record images from 1fps to 50fps.

The depth of field on the new camera is equal to that of a film camera, and can easily be made shallower or deeper. The adoption of a PL mount enables the F35 to use the vast majority of existing 35mm motion picture camera optics, including speciality lenses such as fish eye, swing shift and baby periscope.

Pre-set S-log Gamma delivers wide latitude, retaining details of sunlit areas and shadows, as well as maintaining tonal gradation of night sky scenes"

 

[Eren Ozkural]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be a Sony bashing fan boy but I fail to see how a cumbersome camera like the F35 which can output 50 RGB frames per second at 1080P resolution at best is superior to a compact RED that can output 120 RAW frames per second at 2K and 60 at 4K?

Yes, resolution isn't everything and yes, dynamic range counts-but it's not like the RED is lacking in that department either.

 

[Paul Leeming]

Jim priced RED at 17K whereas the superior SONY is priced at 250K and it is sitting on the shelf. According to their marketing director, they have sold only 2 so far to their own subsidiary!

Sony has sold more than two, at least here in Japan. I know of at least two companies who have 3 and 2 F35's respectively.

As for the US, I think there's a no compete clause with Sony and Panavision since the Genesis is essentially a version of the F35 (or vice versa), hence no sales there?

HTH

Paul

 

[david farland]

bump...

 

[Joshua Brown]

So you're saying I should dig that $20,000 paper weight out of storage and get it working again... 'cause its time has come?

Like NeXT #1911, Red #351 is something I won't forget. Hopefully the Red experience will have a happier outcome.

Ha, that NeXT was closer to 7k... and was historically the first web-server ever. I think it did a pretty good job for what it was in it's time.

-Josh

 

[paul gill]

the sony might be better for chroma key jobs, in our experience, than the red. Although I would have to also say that we have never used both on the same lighting setup so do not have a like for like comparison. Even if you did have the same lighting setup you need to know that the crew know how to get the maximum benefits out of both bits of kit! Actually this is another point, we have had issues where we have realised that the Red op we hired is not quite up to scratch. With the wonderful value for money, I think a lot of people are getting in a little over their depth, more Eng camera guys upgrading to Red and not understanding the best way to use the camera might be different to their previous one. Never needed to use FF, not used to the lighting requirements, Sensor size DOF, etc. Most of you ENG guys are going to do the extra research/testing, but some haven't been thats for sure!

I guess you just have to be really critical when hiring.

One guy from a rental place I spoke told me how he rented out a red one to an op who had only ever used fixed lenses before.

In comparing whilst you may not see massive quality differences with the human eye, compression can make a big difference in post production techniques, as soon as you hit the keyer you see the compression come through in the matte. You get to the point when you start being able to tell what something was shot on by the look of the compression in the matte! the difference between hdcam and hdcam SR is a good example. So even with the Sony the output can vary substantially depending on the deck.

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

I think it was - just notice the "trail" of the white paint he used to "erase" the previous frames, especially visible when the subjects move across the wall...

Kudos to him and his team! True genius...

I'll have to take another look, but yeah, unbelievable.