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120FPS QUALITY - S16MM vs. RED 2K

A

Anson Fogel

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Howdy. We shoot and own R1's as our sole tool and have the post and camera more dialed every day. We're shooting some stock and various for pay stuff, but between that, we have 2 pet longer term personal projects - both involve some high speed/overcranked shooting. We're quite happy with 3K Red at 60FPS, but of course not thrilled with the quality of 2K 120FPS R1 footage, even well processed and graded - when every setting is perfect, full debayer, etc its...OK. But not great. So, I'm debating shooting S16 celluloid for the few shots that really need 100+ FPS. Mainly, we're talking about action sports, specifically whitewater kayaking.

Target output is 2K for digital projection and BluRay for distribution. Some ideas about entering into festivals, but we're obsessed with quality and would not want to handicap something as "good enough" for the usual poorly shown mountain film fest environ

So, a used ARRI SR2 setup can be purchased or rented for a fair price. Film to telecine total costs, well, we're not excited about that. Assume that we'll do a decent but not world-class job of exposing/shooting, and use mid-level labs and telecine....

RED 2K 120FPS vs. ARRI SR2 S16MM 120FPS?
 
I haven't compared the 2, but honestly I would think that the S16 would probably fair a little better. That said, I'd still prefer to shoot RED 2k for a a bunch of reasons, but if image quality is of the utmost importance, then I'd rent a sr2.
 
I think Red 2k will hold it's own pretty well against 16mm film. I used to own an actionmaster 500, and have shot lots of slowmo 16mm. You could do a test. I think 2k with a little sharpening, and no grain, is going to beat a 16mm stock. Shooting high speed you will be using a faster grainier stock as well.

Nick
 
I'd LOVE for you to be right. I've played a lot - am grading a test 2K 120FPS sequence right now actually - with 2K Red. Its just not very good - the debayer penalty seems to hurt. You have to shoot 2:1 as well then crop more info out to 16:9/1.78 or 1.85. I'm playing with various sharpening tools again now, to see what I missed in initial tests....any ideas?

But its awful soft. I've seen some overcranked Super 16 that looked awfully good, albeit handled by badass post facilities and DP's. We are neither.
 
Afogel said:
Brandon, how have you fared with 2K R1 overcranked footy? Any tricks maybe I'm missing? I'm expecting to hear that the S16 DI'd at 2K would blow away R1 at 2K. Just posted it, but that was my expectation. We'll see.
Click to expand...

I'm not the most proficient person to ask, but of the 120fps 2k that I've shot, I've been really happy with. I think you can do a lot of great stuff with it, but like I said, I'd think the s16 would probably have a superior image. Everyone knows that 4k sensor resolves about 3.2k resolution, and so the same is true when shooting 2k, it's resolving quite a bit less (still looks good to me). New s16 stocks might be sharper, and will probably render higher DR also. Noise is more evident in 2k than in 4k, but just make sure you get good exposure and it wont be an issue.

For me, the practicalities of the red one mean I'll never shoot film, even if it continues to look a little better. Realtime monitoring, instant playback, no high speed camera roar or moving parts, and no need to deal with film or labs outweigh the extra stops of DR for me :)
 
And why are you shooting 2:1? I shot 120fps just yesterday and it was all 16:9
 
With plenty of light (i. e. slow neg) S16 should beat the R1 at 2K.

OTOH, there are excellent sharpening algorithms around these days, doing much better than regular video camera stuff or even USM. R1 would always be soft without some decent sharpening, but I'd suggest some research into algorithms used in still photography or astronomical work. These folks are much more into perfect image processing, since you look a ta single frame for quite some time…

Even "Smart Sharpen" (introduced in Photoshop CS2) is doing better than traditional USM, and there are other quite sophisticated algorithms around, like CrispImage or Focus Magic. Since image content is important to judge them, I can't give you some "magic numbers" here, just try a few of them. You'll need to do batch processing of frame sequences in most cases, but it can be worth the effort.
 
16:9 120fpps

16:9 120fpps

Brandon said:
And why are you shooting 2:1? I shot 120fps just yesterday and it was all 16:9
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Hai Brandon, tel me how did you do that, yesterday i only could shoot 100ps in 16:9 2K.!! R28 on redharddisk build 17.

Robert
 
I'll check out my camera tomorrow and get back to you, but I'm almost positive we shot we just shot 120, 16:9, rc28, onto red drive, build 17.
 
Brandon said:
I'll check out my camera tomorrow and get back to you, but I'm almost positive we shot we just shot 120, 16:9, rc28, onto red drive, build 17.
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Sorry Brandon, i just fired up my camera and you can only shoot 100 fps in both 28 and 36 on harddisk in 16:9.

But 100fps is also very nice.........

regards
Robert
 
Hey, If it was me and the job was important use S16mm fine stock or if the budget can handle it go S35 as it will match your R1 better. Last week I shot a TVC with 100 FPS people jumping and it looks very average. I still love the Red though, but we must use the right tools for the job especially when our reputations are at stake!

Cheers and good luck.

Dave
 
I think you can do 2K 16:9 120FPS with the Red-Ram, but I'm not sure.
What lenses are you using? In my experience Red in 2K needs a really sharp lens, either a modern S16 lens or a 35mm prime. If the lens is good enough you should be able to get just shy of 1080P rez out of the 2K which will be just slightly below what perfectly exposed S16 will deliver but with much more grain (on the film).
 
great input from everyone - reduser rocks.

I've tested with both the Red PL 18-50 and various Nikon glass, also done "zoom" tests with Canon L glass on my 5D2 and 5D1 - shoot with Canon lens, zoom in to the equivalent of 2K, put up on same monitor I'm using to grade and test R1 footage. The better Canon L glass, especially my 24-70, which seems to be a really good example - is resolving well at the 2K cropped equivalent. Its a lot sharper than R1 2K given the same pixel count - not sure why. Can't get a direct compare by using same lens on R1 yet - insert Birger joke here. I hear you on glass though, its a great point. I might consider renting top shelf PL glass for the 2K shoots....but I'm trying to get some advance data - trying to decide if its worth it.

I won't be able to use the tightest grain 16MM stock, as I'm shooting 120-150FPS (max on the SR2) - just off the cuff, that's gonna require faster film.

I am getting fully noise free, well exposed 2K 120FPS images from the R1 - that part is awesome - its the overall lack of resolution/softness/video-ish look that is the problem. Some film grain with higher resolution may be a worthwhile tradeoff.

I wonder if there is any BluRay studio or other footage that was captured on Super 16 at 100+ FPS I could use to compare?

Anyone else? Any lens tests with R1 at 2K out there? Great input.
 
I'm with Evin , I would test with Super 16 specific lenses, I'd try the 10.6-180mm T2.6 CANON SUPER 16 ZOOM PL, I'm betting this would be a great deal sharper than a 35mm still 24-70 2.8
interesting to see a test on that.

Marcus
 
I won't be able to use the tightest grain 16MM stock, as I'm shooting 120-150FPS (max on the SR2)
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Nope. SRII max speed is 75FPS. You want an Arri SR high speed, max 150fps. Different beast.

I really think that with good lenses exposed correctly, using a 180 degree shutter, the red is going to be very comparable to the 16mm. A show I shot on red is in post now and there is a bunch of s-16mm film (transfered to hdcam)cut into the show, even the 2k Red stuff wins.

Nick
 
Arrinick thanks - great info. I mistyped, meant the SR HS - which would do 150FPS like you say. Anyway, killer input - I'm very very excited and encouraged to hear that 2K R1 can do well relative to S16. I don't WANT to deal with film at all!

It looks fairly easy to rent that particular S16 canon long glass - we might give it a test. The reason for still glass for us is not so much cost, but weight - hanging off a line 200 feet off the deck over a canyon shooting whitewater kayakers with R1 handheld (suspended, but still) is hard enough - doing it with a long PL cinema lens is almost impossible, they are just too heavy and big. Still glass gets us 90% of the quality while enabling us to put the camera in places we would not otherwise be able to without helicopters and wilderness permitting prevents even that.

I'd love to see some of that S16 to Red 2K compared - got anything you can upload? Stills?
 
I would think that 2k RED and S16 would as many here have said, be very close. I think Evin is sniffing out what might be one pitfall - you might be using a lens that isn't quite up to giving you a sharp image in 2K on your RED, especially if it is used wide open, aperture-wise. And then the whole issue of sharpening/debayering in post. As for a cheap super lightweight solution, might I suggest the Nikon 18-200 - give it a shot. These DX series Nikon lenses seem to be optimized for digital sensors somehow. The ones I have are terrific. The 18-200 is slow, like 5.6, but if you are doing daylight stuff of kayakers, you might find this lens hard to beat.
 
They might be close in a controlled environment, but you mentioned documenting sports like white water rafting or kayaking in which case you probably won't be doing any lighting and therefore the greater dynamic range of film will be a strong advantage.
 
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