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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

It's Time

Just regarding Red Alert, I've asked a couple times about this:

There are several ways to alter your image. I still do not know "best practice" for doing certain things. For instance, your image is a little on the dark side. Should you first raise exposure? Should you first go to the curves? Should you first go to brightness? Again, I know Graham or others know that one is more denigrating to the image, but I've never gotten the answer to this. I realize, by the way, different controls do different things. But there is overlap and I would guess that there is a "best workflow" way as in..."always best to start with XYZ and don't touch ABC..."

Just another example.
 
Kevin Wild said:
Steve-Here is a "workflow" scenario that maybe you can help with...

We shoot about 10 hours of interviews. We want to use a tool (Clipfinder?) to do a quick one-light. Then we edit using Kona to output a "good looking" image on the Plasma to the client sitting in the room. (no choppy proxies just on our computer monitor.)

Okay, we're done and have made our decisions. We'd like to take the XML back into RED Cine and do the full 4k conform with a really good color correction. Then, we want to render the clips out and have them match back into Final Cut Pro for our effects pass and final output.

This seems like a VERY typical scenario for online conforming. As far as I know, it does not currently work, even with the somewhat confusing Crimson workflow using intermediates and all. (There was some file length limitations so it wouldn't even work at all.)

I've tried to a variation on this simple workflow MANY times and it has never worked. Too many edits...must divide you sequence...clips are too long...can't build... There are many issues still.

I've worked on AVID's and FCP since their inception and am comfortable with "work arounds." But I do hope that they make the simple workflow that I gave you above...simple and soon.

Thanks.

Kevin
Click to expand...

It may require a combination of tools to get it done. Take a closer look at Clipfinder. It's got some conform tools that might help you out, plus some people have been tinkering and finding ways to get into Color smoothly with a Clipfinder workflow. Also, Rubber Monkey has some handy tools.

I'm going to shortchange this post because I've only got a couple of minutes to respond. But let's keep discussing. I'm on a shoot the next couple of days and then I'll get back into this.
 
Kevin Wild said:
Just regarding Red Alert, I've asked a couple times about this:

There are several ways to alter your image. I still do not know "best practice" for doing certain things. For instance, your image is a little on the dark side. Should you first raise exposure? Should you first go to the curves? Should you first go to brightness? Again, I know Graham or others know that one is more denigrating to the image, but I've never gotten the answer to this. I realize, by the way, different controls do different things. But there is overlap and I would guess that there is a "best workflow" way as in..."always best to start with XYZ and don't touch ABC..."

Just another example.
Click to expand...

Here's my take on things. An order of things.

1. Shoot it really well to begin with. This will require less tweaking in Red Alert.

2. Make decisions on Color and gamma space. For example, I often shoot Rec709 View on set. But in post, I will use Redspace for the color space and Rec709 for the gamma. There is a catch 22 to this though. Proxies don't update the color space changes. Transcodes do though.

3. Next, I check to make sure that my ISO setting is where I want it. Usually this is at 320. But circumstance might dictate changing this for one reason or another.

4. Next I check color temperature. If I goofed on set and didn't set things right, I will correct for it now.

5. I will next look at my exposure. I try not to make too many dramatic moves here. Mostly it's just to compensate a little here or there for either under or over exposure.

6. I will then go in and make a curves adjustment. Again, this will not show up in proxies update, so only use for transcoding purposes or to give yourself a reference point for later. I will often apply a nice S-curve here, but try to keep it from being too extreme. You'll want to give yourself grading room later on. I might also use it to fix some exposure issues when I need a bit more control than just a global exposure adjustment.

7. I will then see what I've got and might at this point add some brightness or contrast, but it will most likely be subtle if at all.

8. OLPF and detail levels are based on what you like for sharpness and detail. Same with NR. Add to taste.

I aim for getting a solid image hopefully without needing to go to extremes at this stage. Getting it into the zone sort of speak. One you are in the zone, you'll give yourself a better chance when grading later on. If you find you are having to do a lot of extreme things in Red Alert or Redcine to get your images to look right, probably want to examine shooting practices and see if there is anything you are doing that is causing these extreme adjustments.

Hope this helps.
 
stevesherrick said:
It may require a combination of tools to get it done. Take a closer look at Clipfinder. It's got some conform tools that might help you out, plus some people have been tinkering and finding ways to get into Color smoothly with a Clipfinder workflow. Also, Rubber Monkey has some handy tools.

I'm going to shortchange this post because I've only got a couple of minutes to respond. But let's keep discussing. I'm on a shoot the next couple of days and then I'll get back into this.
Click to expand...


Steve, you kind of proved my point here. This is a VERY common way to work for many people. It shouldn't be difficult or involve lots of workarounds. But if you have advice, I'm all for it. Ultimately, I would like RED to support a simple solution for XML back and forth that is bug-free, so I agree with the title and original poster here: IT'S TIME! :)
 
By the way, we work nearly exactly the same as you. (Though we shoot using Red Space.) We're on the same page here, but my point was it would be great to hear from the RED team if one way of working is truly (under the hood stuff) better or worse for the actual image. (Exposure is metadata...curves are not, right? So, isn't it always better to FIRST use Exposure if you need to brighten mids? Stuff like this would be helpful...)
 
Okay, I should be in bed by now for an early flight. But...Here is something from Graeme a while ago. It might not answer everything, but does have some suggestions.

From Graeme:

For those of you out there using REDALert!

1) use REC709 gamma in the gamma linearity pulldown menu. Linear light is for specialists applications and looking at raw data values. REC709 is for "general" use, and REDLog for 10bit DPX Export to retain maximum precision.

2) Brightness and Contrast controls works well. Try these before diving into the curves. They both work on nice shaped curves so that they try not to crush information out of your footage.

3) if the image is really dark, first boost it's levels with the ISO control. That control is set up to provide the appropriate decoding of darker footage. If you clip on the histogram, back off on the exposure setting.

4) in most cases you can fid extra dynamic range by backing off the exposure a stop or so.

5) if you're exporting stills to open in Photoshop, remember a 10bit DPX writes to disk quicker than a 16bit tiff and will open in Photoshop just as well....

6) I'm sure I'll think of more handy hints and tips......
 
My best tip: Don't do long clips, do as short as possible. In my last project I had a couple of clip well over 10 minutes, and it was plain hell to work with these.

Otherwise I think FCP/clipfinder is working quite good for me.
 
Julio Quintana said:
The Final Cut/Color workflow has a couple of glitches, but I wouldn't call it a "half-baked jerry rigged workaround". And in the professional realm, Scratch has proven to be rock solid in every way.
Click to expand...

Scratch is Microdoft Windows only, and installing windows on a mac is (still) a little complicated.

Anyhow, whoever edits on Final Cut still. after the Adobe Premiere workflow has become available, need Microsoft Windows for upping his quality.
 
I haven't used any 'workflow" with my red, but from what I can see, unless you buy cineform prospect 4k for windows, there is NO meta-data driven workflow available yet, as the SI2K has.

Neither does the support for Adobe or FCP allow as much control of the R3Ds as you get from outside those apps, and then its more or less baked in.

My needs are simple, so cutting proxies with the TC and Filename burnt in, then using an old tool called a "pencil" and a storage medium known as "paper", I find I avoid most compatibility issues with EDLs, and can export only the TIFFs I require. Of course it might not work for many modern films with cuts every 3sec's on average (I made this number up to make a point..)

I'd like redcine to loose its "realtime" previews and subsequent reliance on H.A.L s and allow the user to select a smaller preview rectangle on the source image for previewing instead (allowing a better before/after view as a by-product). Maybe then it'll work on most machines properly, regardless of graphics card. That'd also mean using a CPU driven demosaic algorithm, but waiting 8hrs for a QT with no frames in, and not knowing that until every single frame has been meticulously prepared, then NOT WRITTEN PROPERLY, isn't what I call "optimized" either..

Add a larger curve interface (with numeric inputs), and allow the export of audio (AIFF would do) , and it would be useful.

Still waiting for the "PROPRIETORY R3D FORMAT" TRANSCODING TOOL, WITH PREVIEWS, THAT WORKS (sorry Redrushes, you're only good for rougher rushes, but you do it so well..), so I can get my data out with greater dignity (including audio)

As for the long term, I really want RAW unbayered output for storage and editing, without the reverse engineering that Cineform are forced to do (although, again, not with the SI2K..)
 
ronx said:
My needs are simple, so cutting proxies with the TC and Filename burnt in, then using an old tool called a "pencil" and a storage medium known as "paper", I find I avoid most compatibility issues with EDLs, and can export only the TIFFs I require.
Click to expand...
Hehe, I hear you Ronx, I cut using Red R3Ds on the Premiere Pro timeline, then write down the clips I use and open just those in RedCine to render out as TIFFs. Works fine for a music video, not so fine for a feature ;)

Cheers!

Paul
 
If your final destination is TV or DVD the- shoot 4K HD and transcode to Prores 1080 in Log and Transfer is a very nice, simple post workflow. And you can subclip using the preview window, timecode and audio in L&T so you don't transcode what you don't need. And the transcoding is fast. Plus, you can still use Color if you don't mind not having the metadata.
 
Kevin Wild said:
Just regarding Red Alert, I've asked a couple times about this:

There are several ways to alter your image. I still do not know "best practice" for doing certain things. For instance, your image is a little on the dark side. Should you first raise exposure? Should you first go to the curves? Should you first go to brightness? Again, I know Graham or others know that one is more denigrating to the image, but I've never gotten the answer to this. I realize, by the way, different controls do different things. But there is overlap and I would guess that there is a "best workflow" way as in..."always best to start with XYZ and don't touch ABC..."

Just another example.
Click to expand...


1st curves----does the curves setting survive when outputting?
2nd brightness
3rd exposure
 
Cüneyt Kaya said:
1st curves----does the curves setting survive when outputting?
Click to expand...

I may be wrong but I think the curves adjustment in REDAlert only carries over when you transcode from REDAlert. As for REDrushes, Clipfinder and Log and Transfer, I'm not sure.

....can anybody clarify?
 
Thanks for clearing that up, Hans. Thus the thumbnails in Clipfinder not representing the RSX's look, right?

I'm glad curves do get saved with the RSX. Had me nervous that I had wasted a bunch of time on those...
 
Kevin,

You are correct. The display in Clipfinder 2.1 (main window, thumbnails, etc.) is taken from the proxies and does not reflect changes to color space, gamma space and curves.
Clipfinder 2.2 will use RED's SDK for display and will display the same as REDAlert.

Cheers,
Hans
 
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