Scarlet versus DSLR as a still camera

[Tim Morten]

So I'm selling my current Nikon, and trying to decide between waiting for a Scarlet, or getting a D700. Before everyone inevitably says: "You fool! There's just no comparison - the Nikon has no video capability whatsoever!!", please note that I will absolutely be trading my Red One in for an Epic-X. No question. But what I'm looking at here is what my still photography solution will be. Epic looks bigger and heavier than a DSLR (edit: This may not be the case, based on what Jim said below), and an expensive piece of gear to risk trotting around for all the situations where I'm just planning to take stills. Scarlet seems like the obvious candidate from the Red line

As I weighed the pros and cons of the Scarlet versus the Nikon, I'm coming to the conclusion that while Scarlet kicks all kinds of ass as a hybrid camera, it seems like DSLR's still have the edge for applications that are purely about stills. I've attached a quick chart that I whipped up to demonstrate... Scarlet has a clear advantage for video and for modularity, but in the other criteria I looked at, it is only comparable or at a disadvantage. Somone is surely going to say: "Yeah, but Scarlet will make a great B camera for your Epic". Yes, it would, but that's not what I'm looking for here. Plain and simple, I'm looking for a still camera. Perhaps the Red position would be that (in this case) I am the wrong customer - that Scarlet is aimed at the emerging hybrid market rather than the traditional still market. If so, that's fair enough... just curious if I'm missing something.

Cheers,
Tim

Edit: Chart updated to reflect the later discussion in this thread.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Most of those specs leave out a giant question: Do you always want access to 3k video? Size/Weight etc don't matter if you have to carry two items. So for me I always want access to 4k video. Even if I had an epic I wouldn't take it on vacation. Is the 5% of the time when you want video worth the added weight? That's the question.

Even if you're location scouting. You might want to shoot a little video. I see far too many opportunities in which I would also want video in addition to stills that a hybrid seems indespensable.

(Of course one could argue a modern DSLR's 1080p mode is 'good enough').

 

[Tim Morten]

While it's absolutely valid to say that video is what makes Scarlet better, I hoped that I was fairly explicit that IN THIS APPLICATION I ONLY CARE ABOUT STILL PHOTOGRAPHY (forgive my caps).

Thanks,
Tim

 

[Jannard]

For STILLS only, the Nikon will serve you better than a 2/3" Scarlet. EPIC is a different story. Nothing like sensor size and resolution for stills...

The primary advantage of Scarlet 2/3" is to take moving images good enough for most professional applications. While the stills capability is incredible considering the sensor size... it is a 3K camera with a 2/3" sensor. It is not a FF35 sensor.

EPIC is something else. And it is not much bigger than a pro DSLR (Canon 1Ds MkIII or D3X).

Jim

 

[Tim Morten]

Thanks Jim; you are awesome for responding directly - I'm honored!

- Tim

PS - Based on that, I may wait and make Epic my all-in-one solution.

 

[Jannard]

PS - Based on that, I may wait and make Epic my all-in-one solution.

That's exactly what I am going to do...

Jim

 

[Gareth Gerrard]

Jim - might be a silly question but will the 2/3 be able to take stills?...
I just thought the S35 and the F35 DSMCs were only capable of stills or have I missed something?

 

[Jeff Butcher]

The one question I have about using a Scarlet or Epic as a stills camera is the sensitivity of the sensor. Its seems that we get higher ISO's with less noise with each generation of DSLR. I don't believe we know what the native ISO will be on the Mysterium-X and Monstro yet but we do know the current Mysterium works best at 320 ISO and I cant imagine shooting that on my Canon unless in the studio or day exteriors (I tend to shoot at night or in dim interiors a lot). I generally find myself around the 800 mark. I've seen some stills from the 5D MkII at 6400 which were surprising. Any clue/hint/info on what the native ISO will be on the MX sensor?

 

[Ralph B.]

Scarlet vs. the big boy DSLRs

Scarlet vs. the big boy DSLRs

If you compare Scarlet to the high end of Nikon and Canon when it comes to size/use, price, and resolution I think it compares very favorably... AND THEN THERE IS THAT MOTION THING...

SIZE
I know everything is subject to change but looking at Reds original size of the SCARLET it is smaller in width height and depth than the Canon 1Ds Mark III and the Nikon D3x (so is the Epic, save for depth which is deeper than both although only slightly deeper than the D3x). I highlight this because the shape of the DSMC makes it seem like its much bulkier than modern DSLRs, it may end up being larger but a reasonable estimate even given increases is that it will at worst be in the same ball park as the Nikon Canon big boys. Part of this is probably due to the fact that Nikon and Canon haven't re-thought the shape of DSLRs since they had to carry around film canisters.

USE
In addition the modularity should help the RED handle better. Let me explain. The RED will be able to be set up for the specific task at hand. What ever you choose to shoot there will be a configuration that will do it ideally or almost ideally where you just stick your head behind a modern DSLR. I have always been able to capture more candid shots with medium format cameras simply because I am not actually looking "at" the subject but looking down. I'll be able to do that with a LCD, I'll also be able to stick my head behind it with a viewfinder. News photographers now have become aces at holding their camera's in the air and squeezing there 5-10fps and getting a shot when there is no line of sight, but imagine doing that with an adjustable LCD so you can actually see what's happening and squeezing off 72fps. DSMC because of it's modularity will provide more options in ways to get the shot.

PRICE / Resolution
Everything is subject to change, but the price of a FF35 SCARLET body is in line with the 1Ds Mark III and the D3x, as is the resolution.

AND THEN THERE IS THAT MOTION THING....

 

[Ralph B.]

The one question I have about using a Scarlet or Epic as a stills camera is the sensitivity of the sensor. Its seems that we get higher ISO's with less noise with each generation of DSLR. I don't believe we know what the native ISO will be on the Mysterium-X and Monstro yet but we do know the current Mysterium works best at 320 ISO and I cant imagine shooting that on my Canon unless in the studio or day exteriors (I tend to shoot at night or in dim interiors a lot). I generally find myself around the 800 mark. I've seen some stills from the 5D MkII at 6400 which were surprising. Any clue/hint/info on what the native ISO will be on the MX sensor?

Don't forget post.

We don't know the characteristics of the sensor, but anyone worried about such a sophisticated issue will probably take advantage of some form of post processing. The RED one seems to have more "room" in stops of latitude below the magic 320 ISO than above it and people tend to shoot with that in mind.

There is a tremendous amount of stuff that goes on in between the sensor and the image that comes out of modern DSLRs. My estimation is that there will be some "look" like REC 709 or REDSPACE on the RED1 that you can choose from if you don't want to deal with any post processing for stills. RED and REDCODE is constantly improving and Mysterium X and Monstro are just one of the factors that will address any given objective or subjective factor in the images from the cameras

 

[David Rasberry]

Jim - might be a silly question but will the 2/3 be able to take stills?...
I just thought the S35 and the F35 DSMCs were only capable of stills or have I missed something?

I think 2/3" Scarlet will do OK for some stills use. 4.9MP resolution. Check the stills posted online from a Leica Digilux 2, also a 2/3" sensor.

The question is what will the total weight of a Scarlet , any format, be with smart handle, battery, EVF, and a suitable lens attached? For hang it around your neck carry and shoot it might be a bit heavy?

 

[Tim Morten]

Hey tmorten, I think your MysteriumX resolution is off (by 2x) in your chart from the original post in this discussion.

If 3K = 3,000 x 3,000 pixels, then that equals 9,000,000 by my math... Mysterium X is capable of higher resolutions than that, but not the Scarlet 2/3, if I understand the 12/3 announcement correctly.

Cheers,
Tim

 

[Tim Morten]

The one question I have about using a Scarlet or Epic as a stills camera is the sensitivity of the sensor. Its seems that we get higher ISO's with less noise with each generation of DSLR. I don't believe we know what the native ISO will be on the Mysterium-X and Monstro yet but we do know the current Mysterium works best at 320 ISO and I cant imagine shooting that on my Canon unless in the studio or day exteriors (I tend to shoot at night or in dim interiors a lot). I generally find myself around the 800 mark. I've seen some stills from the 5D MkII at 6400 which were surprising. Any clue/hint/info on what the native ISO will be on the MX sensor?

I don't have the link handy, but my understanding from one of the December announcements is that Mysterium-X is at least one stop better than the current Mysterium, and Monstro is at least one stop better than that. Everything subject to change and such, but I know the Red team is very aware of the widespread desire for more dynamic range, and I expect the new sensors will be at the forefront of anything available when they are released.

Cheers,
Tim

 

[Justin O'Neill]

If 3K = 3,000 x 3,000 pixels, then that equals 9,000,000 by my math... Mysterium X is capable of higher resolutions than that, but not the Scarlet 2/3, if I understand the 12/3 announcement correctly.

Cheers,
Tim

I don't know where you heard the 2/3" Scarlet will have a 3,000 x 3,000 sensor. 3k only refers to the horizontal pixels. We don't know the final specs but I would imagine the vertical pixels will be 2,000 or less.

The RED One certainly doesn't have 4,000 vertical pixels.

 

[Ralph B.]

This link should help with the sensor sizes and resolutions. The "current" all specs subject to change size in photosites is 3072 x 1620 for the 3K 2/3" sensor.

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=23770

 

[Justin O'Neill]

This link should help with the sensor sizes and resolutions. The "current" all specs subject to change size in photosites is 3072 x 1620 for the 3K 2/3" sensor.

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=23770

Thanks Ralph, that's what I was looking for!

That makes the 2/3" Scarlet a 5mp camera. 4.98mp to be exact.

You should probably change your chart, tmorten before people get too excited!

 

[Justin O'Neill]

Jim - might be a silly question but will the 2/3 be able to take stills?...
I just thought the S35 and the F35 DSMCs were only capable of stills or have I missed something?

The motion/stills switch is on the modules and since the modules are compatible with all the brains the 2/3" Scarlet will be able to take stills just like the rest of the lineup.

 

[Tim Morten]

Thanks Ralph, that's what I was looking for!

That makes the 2/3" Scarlet a 5mp camera. 4.98mp to be exact.

You should probably change your chart, tmorten before people get too excited!

Right you are! Chart updated...

Cheers,
Tim

 

[Gareth Gerrard]

The motion/stills switch is on the modules and since the modules are compatible with all the brains the 2/3" Scarlet will be able to take stills just like the rest of the lineup.

Cheers for the clear up Justin, just got slightly confused with the whole 'DSMC' on the top two Scarlet's.

 

[Joseph Ward]

Wouldn't you compare the new hybrid DSLR's to FF35 Scarlet instead?