Red Rushes vs. FCP Log and Transfer

[Dillon Brown]

Hello everyone,

First let me preface by saying thank you for the invaluable information I have already gained on this website.

I have a question regarding the absolute best workflow for a current RED project going into post-production, being edited on the latest version of FCP - we also want to use Color as well. I am a bit perplexed as to what route I should take, as I have heard multiple views about the subject. I have read the FCS Whitepaper which says that the Log and Transfer method is the absolute best way to go about editing RED footage in Final Cut Pro. However, I was at a conference the other day and was told by two people - one whom owns Plastercity Digital Post, that I should go through RED Rushes and then go into FCP... I am fairly confident that I should go the Log and Transfer route, but perhaps not.

Also, there are two methods listed in the whitepaper for ways in which to ingest the RED footage into FCP. The first listed is Log and Transfer, and I am wondering if then the R3D files are actually converted to Quicktime ProRes files. If so, then is it possible to re-link them back to the original source files at 4K or would one either have to choose the resolution to edit in, say 2K, and never be able to go back to the original footage. And if it is possible, does one have to log and transfer again at a higher setting and relink the media, or go through Red Rushes and do the same thing? Or do the ProRes Quicktimes link back...

I assume that with using the Ingesting RED Quicktime Files, then it points back directly to the R3D files. Just what are the pros and cons to each.

If relevant - we have all the footage shot in 4K.

On a similar note - pardon my ignorance but is REDALERT a single R3D file at a time application in terms of workflow, whereas RedRushes is a batch file application? For example, baking the footage overnight would use Red Rushes, correct?

Thank you for any assistance!

 

[M Most]

I have a question regarding the absolute best workflow for a current RED project going into post-production...

Before you get elaborate and complicated, ask yourself (or let me ask you) one question: What do you want to end up with? In other words, what are you creating and for whom or what?

 

[Dillon Brown]

Thanks for the reply. Our end product will be HDCam for distribution to festivals and Quicktime Full 4K for archival, and Quicktime 1080p for web distribution. If this answers your question. Editing in FCP and then color work in Color before final output.

 

[Chris Parker]

i would go with red rushes over log and transfer. it is dead easy, and pretty rock solid. also, i believe you are limited to working in 2K in Color, but that should be more than enough. if you want to do your color work at 4K you'll need to go to a scratch or baselight facility.....

 

[Dillon Brown]

Thanks so much Chris. So you would suggest Red Rushes over Log and Transfer, even using the Quicktime reference files way? Transcoding it to ProRes 422, how is editing done in 2K and then re-linked to the 4K R3D files?

 

[Chris Parker]

once they are transcoded to ProRes, they will retain the metadata info. so you cut with these in final cut, then 'send to color' your sequence. there you will have the option to re-connect to .r3d file and work in 2K. then render out again to whatever final format you want, and 'send to final cut'.

i think.....

 

[Dillon Brown]

I think you are correct, as FCP doesn't open R3D files natively... so do the offline with the smaller res files in FCP and then online the original files in Color to do the grading, and then export from Color... why would you suggest sending to final cut again since it doesn't work with R3D files? Thanks again.

 

[Chris Parker]

well, you have to do your final output in some format other than RED. until everybody has a red ray anyways

what were you planning on delivering?

 

[Dillon Brown]

We are planning on delivering in HDCam, possibly HDCam SR.

I guess my main question of this whole thread, and due to my ignorance of the subject - is when one transcodes the R3D files to ProRes 422 Quicktimes, how are they linked back to the original R3D files? Or if we edit in 2K how do we get the 4K back - is it by re-transcoding all the R3D files in RedRushes to 4K and then re-linking the media. Editing offline and then bringing the media back online.

Sorry for my ignorance on the subject - I know FCP very well, just not RED workflow.

 

[Loren White]

Why not just edit with proxies and then send to color, which will allow you to work with the 2k media, send back to fcp as 2k ProRes HQ or 10bit UNC.

 

[Dillon Brown]

That is a very viable option, however I believe there are cons to this method.

1) More processor intensive - even though we are editing on Dual Xeon 2.8 ghz with 4 GB of RAM
2) All the native R3Ds have to be online at all times to link to the media
3) We are not planning on finishing in 4K for distribution, so for ease of workflow we would be happy with 2K or even 1080p....

We are going to shelve the 4K files for the future, and if the opportunity presents itself we can always re-link those native files I believe, or transcode them to ProRes at 4K...

Although the argument for this workflow is the ability to grade in Color with the native files, so with that said, I will be testing this workflow...

And here is the best post I have EVER read about the various means of FCP workflow --> http://reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=363643&postcount=2

 

[Michael Fix]

I have been lurking and following this thread as I am in a similar situation with a project. Thanks for the information.

 

[Michael Cioni]

Rushes, Transfers and Screenigs

Rushes, Transfers and Screenigs

Couple things that might help those on this thread.

R3D Match-Back
All of the transcoding methods discussed here (and then some) will accurately match back to the Red source 4K media. When transcoding correctly, there is no R3D tool that truncates the necessary metadata required to online the project (even Avid Meridian in standard definition), so long as you maintain framerate consistency. This suggests you need not let match-back concerns narrow or inhibit your decisions about workflow potential. White Papers can be helpful, but there are (already) a dozen white papers, Re: Red Support, so you can imagine that conflicts of interest arise between app to app. and their respective white paper recommendations.

Proxy vs. ProRes
Proxy movies are not nearly as stable as ProRes transcodes when utilizing the "send to color" workflow. With consideration to what I consider the best balance between quality and cost, Apple Color can get the job done but this job is made much easier with ProRes sourced transcodes. I also recommend keeping all VisFX to a minimum when planning on an Apple-centric round trip, as Color may not correctly interpret peripheral metadata fields such as speed effects, layering, filtration, etc. After your grade is complete, send back and apply all secondary effects from Color graded plates.

R3Ds vs. Quicktime
It is very common to observe concerns about the need to go back to R3Ds in order to finish a job or even prep for DI. Qualitatively speaking, a proper 1080p transcode in RedRushes (for example) at Half/High to ProRes HQ in RedLog will afford a properly exposed R3D more range for color correction than capturing an uncompressed 10bit image from an F900-R. In other words, IF HDCAM was good enough for your needs yesterday, ProRes may suffice today. That is to say that even though it is not the top of the food chain, ProRes transcodes are being taken advantage of in every market, both by indies and studios alike. Plus, many colorists are fine with working with RedLog ProRes transcodes, especially at facilities/institutions that do not support file-based conforming/grading. Having more choices with talent will surely improve your image potential more than that of the R3D source file itself.

4K DI and Distribution
I have come across far too many intelligent people who do not seem to understand the limits of today's distribution reality. I'm constantly puzzled as to why people needlessly add to the complexity of post production by inducing 4k DI and Distribution to their pipelines. Red has no doubt made the acquisition of 4k so wonderfully easy - but unfortunately, the same cannot be said about the finishing of 4k source media.
Color correction is ironically the easiest part of 4k DI, it's the data, the backup and the film print that puts up the fight. The world at large has only seen a few 4k DIs since it even became technologically possible. Far less than 1% of movies seen by theater bound ticket holders have actually experienced 4k resolution benefits. But 100% of theater patrons have seen the results of 4k+ image sources down-sampled to 2k. Yet there are many intelligent and decorated people who live with the misunderstanding that finishing in 2k is like throwing away 3/4 of their investment. In the world of bayer pattern, 1:78 CMOS compressed wavelet files, you are not losing anything in 4k if you can never see it in 4k.
My advice is not to give too much consideration to 4k resolution, rather make efforts towards thickening up a 2k neg from an over-sampled source. This even means that 2k ProRes files for many projects can serve as the hero media. Most people would be surprised if they knew who was using ProRes through and through and avoiding the reconform from R3D.

Always put your best foot forward, and don't let those white papers tell you too much!

 

[Nathan Armstrong]

Thanks for the info. . . also reading along here.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Oversample at acquisition + post at 2K/1080 = the sweet spot

Oversample at acquisition + post at 2K/1080 = the sweet spot

Many thanks to Michael for taking the time to share the expertise he has gained through many months of working with RedOne generated files. He's the man.

That said, some material would show a discernable difference even in a 2K/1080 final deliverable if the grading and processing of the image (plug ins, virtual filtration, carefully finessed grain passes, considered use of DNR, etc) were done to the full 4K image prior to a Lanczos downrez to 2K or 1080. Underexposed images are often good candidates for this treatment as it offers you greater ability to manage noise in the toe without a blunt force crush of the blacks. It could also make sense if you have delicate foreground shapes (trees, hair, etc) against a blown out sky or window - but I wouldn't mess with it unless the pixel picked version looked really edgy and/or the shot was really important to the piece.

Of course, as the saying goes, if a frog could fly... By that I mean you need the time, talent and hardware to actually massage the image at 4K, which, as Michael noted, rarely happens even in "big time" productions. Hopefully you have well lit and properly exposed footage, in which case you're golden.

IMHO getting your deliverable on SR instead of regular HDCAM is worth pursuing, hopefully the viewing apparatus at the festival can support it (iffy). The big plus is it will give you a tape based master with solid shelf life that would stand up in a film out (or DCDM) for theatrical much better than straight HDCAM due to the lower compression and better color sampling.

Strongly concur with Michael's suggestion of half/high for your quality setting - its worth some extra render time, I also support using the RedLog color space if you are sure you will be doing a color pass. HTH.

Cheers-

 

[M Most]

Most people would be surprised if they knew who was using ProRes through and through and avoiding the reconform from R3D.

I would amend that to include DNxHD 175 (and even 115) as well. Although I would also say that the reasons for doing that are not always the best (it's usually based on simplicity and familiarity), and doing the reconform using a tool that does it quickly and easily (i.e., Scratch) is often a good option.

Good post, Michael.

 

[Brad Stoddard]

Always put your best foot forward, and don't let those white papers tell you too much!

This thread has been a great help and everyone thank you!

If one WERE to follow the white paper suggestion
"Stage 2 — Reconform Your Project to RED QuickTime Media"
and in the last step
"6. Lastly, right-click the new offline sequence that’s been created, and choose Batch
Capture from the shortcut menu. When the Log and Transfer window appears,
reingest all necessary footage from your archived RED media directories."

Batch Capture for me brings up a device error trying to "Log and Capture" I assume. How do you get "Log and Transfer" to follow the Batch Capture with ProRes media in the sequence?

Thanks, Brad

 

[Uli Plank]

If there was any source other than RED in your timeline (even imported stills), you'll get this error. Deactivate such clips before batch.

 

[Sam Roberts]

I also recommend keeping all VisFX to a minimum when planning on an Apple-centric round trip, as Color may not correctly interpret peripheral metadata fields such as speed effects, layering, filtration, etc.

Michael. Would a way around this be to make a Quicktime movie of each effect stack in the timeline and drop that down to v1 for the trip to color?

 

[Brad Stoddard]

If there was any source other than RED in your timeline (even imported stills), you'll get this error. Deactivate such clips before batch.

Sorry but I'm stuck here. There is something I'm just not getting. The White Paper (Nov 11, 2008) is very specific about the steps to reconfrom a ProRes sequence to RED QT before grading in Color.

Page 16 (White Paper-Using RED Media with Final Cut Studio – Nov 11, 2008)
"Workflow 2: Work Offline Using ProRes;
Finish Using RED QuickTime Media
This workflow describes transcoding to ProRes for efficient offline editing, then
reconforming your edited sequence to reingested RED QuickTime media for final
mastering and color correction using Color. "

All I get is a device error because the "Log and Capture" window is coming up. Not the "Log and Transfer" window.

Humble, but ready to reconnect everything manually to the proxies...

Brad