RED's DSMC could be huge game changer in wedding/event market.

[Andy Morris]

Most people on this forum are probably film-makers, documentary film-makers, big budget commercial and music video producers, etc. Well, I currently represent the wedding/event market, and am wanting to implement what RED's DSMC has to offer in this market. I would love to hear everyone's thought's on this subject. Here are mine...

I currently shoot with Sony's standard def 3 ccd video cameras and Canon's DSLRs (APS-C) with multiple lenses. I'd love to be able to merge these technologies while at the same time take them to a higher level (better resolution, RAW recording, shallow depth of field, etc). I also want to shoot some movies/docs eventually. Needless to say, I'm very excited about what the Scarlet potentially has to offer.

The event market could be huge for RED, especially for weddings, depending on how the Scarlet performs. To shoot an event properly you need a videographer AND a photographer, usually from 2 different companies. Right now I offer packages that cover both photo and video but I have to use multiple shooters, multiple cameras, etc. But I envision one day to streamline this process by having an image capturing device that can capture video at high enough resolution that stills can later be extracted from it and be used for print (mainly for creating a photo album and some prints up to 8x10 or so). I would also want low light ability, shallow depth of field and RAW recording (for video and still processing in post).

Right now I'm extracting stills from SD video to print DVD case art and some small photo books and it's certainly not ideal (1MP). I barely get satisfactory results by using image enhancement and softening (for small print sizes). HD cameras would be better for still extraction, but still not quite good enough (2MP) for what I want to do. Of course I also need shallow depth of field with quick and accurate focus ability (auto focus or a quick punch in and out LCD focus assist function). I wonder if Scarlet is the answer here.

I would probably continue to use a dedicated high rez still camera for formal wedding shots, etc. and HD video cams for multiple camera shoots, but would love to have a Scarlet as my main camera. Having the ability to capture video and stills at the same time would be a game changer.

The Canon 5d Mark II is appealing to me, but even if the video had better controls, I'm pretty sure you can't take photos AND video AT THE SAME TIME. You have to switch back and forth between modes which won't work for me. I guess it windows the sensor for HD recording or something. I would love to record high res photos (around 5 MP or so) and at least HD quality video AT THE SAME TIME.

Another option would be a camera that while recording HD footage could also have a separate shutter button that took stills at a higher rez and stored it on another folder on the card, or a separate card. Not sure if that's even possible or cost effective to make.

Think of the benefits of a true DSMC:
- A video cameraman can be positioned in churches during weddings where still photographers aren't allowed (better shots)
- DSLR shutters are noisy. Scarlet wouldn't be.
- Less of the "poperattzi effect" at wedding receptions.
- No more guesswork of when to take the picture when you take 24-60 shots per second.
- RAW images for better enhancing in post.
- ???

Downside to this thinking:
- Media Storage. What would recording a couple hours at 3K require?
- Lighting. How would the Scarlet handle a flash while recording video. It probably wouldn't. I would need an on or off camera soft light most of the time.
- Camera rig might be a bit heavy for a lot of hand-held work (or steady cam work)
- ???

I'm also tired of shooting with Canon's APS-C sensors. I don't like the 1.6x crop factor! Would the Scarlet 2/3 sensor have a similar crop factor when using 35mm lenses? How wide do we think the fixed lens Scarlet 8x lens will go? I would love it to go out to 18mm (35mm equivalent). Will wide angle adapters be a possible benefit here?

Will the 2/3 Scarlet sensor work for what I'm describing or will I need to jump to the S35 or FF35 for this (probably can't justify the cost yet though). I noticed on RED's site that the 2/3 Scarlets aren't designated as a DSMC. It's hopefully an oversite, but I wonder if that's because the sensor isn't considered big enough for high rez stills. Or maybe there's missing functionality. The watch shot Jarred posted last week with the Scarlet 2/3 prototype would suggest otherwise...

Again, I would love to hear many of your thoughts on this subject. I've learned a lot reading many of the posts on this forum and your feedback will help me (and others I'm sure) "gear up" for future equipment purchasing this year. I'm certainly looking forward to what is to come.

 

[Eki Halkka]

- Media Storage. What would recording a couple hours at 3K require?

I recall RedOne's 4K is about 100 GB / hour...

I'm also tired of shooting with Canon's APS-C sensors. I don't like the 1.6x crop factor! Would the Scarlet 2/3 sensor have a similar crop factor when using 35mm lenses?

The crop factor is about 4x for a 2/3" sensor, roughly 2.5 times more than for APS-C.

How wide do we think the fixed lens Scarlet 8x lens will go? I would love it to go out to 18mm (35mm equivalent). Will wide angle adapters be a possible benefit here?

Well, no-one outside Red knows, but something like 30-240 mm would be a really sensible 35mm equivalent range... wide adapters should also work.

Will the 2/3 Scarlet sensor work for what I'm describing or will I need to jump to the S35 or FF35 for this (probably can't justify the cost yet though).

S35 is pretty similar to APS-C as far as sensor size goes, so the only option to fill all your requirements is FF35.

This said, stills from 2/3 scarlet should be plenty good enough for album prints, DVD covers and such.

 

[Jerrod Cordell]

I would love to record high res photos (around 5 MP or so) and at least HD quality video AT THE SAME TIME.

What would be the point? All you have to do is take a screen grab of the actual footage Ta Daaa! Instant high res photo.

And even though Scarlet's rolling shutter will be faster than the Red One's, I'm not sure how it will handle flash photography. It might be fine by the time the FF35 Scarlet comes out with the Monstro sensor, but I doubt Mysterium X will be able to handle it.

Here's a video from the 5D and it has the same problem in the Red One.

http://www.vimeo.com/3388630

But you would probably need the FF35 Scarlet as your main camera. You can probably get away with some of the 2/3" Scarlets as B cameras (even the fixed lens for auto focus and whatnot).

 

[J. Eric Camp]

This doesn't capture video and stills at the same time. You have to switch modes in a DSMC. However, when capturing at it's full rez, you can just pull a still out of the motion. Trust me you will be happy with the results.

This is done for a variety of reasons, including but not limited to the fact that there are different kinds of settings one would need access to in a still mode than in a motion mode.

Here is your problem.

The 2/3" Scarlet is bigger and better than the video you are currently using, but will be roughly a 4.6mp still that will have a crop factor when using 35mm still lenses.

Then you could think about the SS35 or the SF35 at $7k and $9k respectively.

Now you have much much more video rez than you have been using, potentially overkill, but the crop factor on lenses is nominal or non existent and the MP is nice and healthy. (roughly 15mp - 18mp)

Choices choices.

 

[jbeale]

There's another factor I haven't heard mentioned in discussions of this sort. One of the pieces of advice in my FAQ for wedding videographers is "...don't be tempted to shoot stills as well as video, it requires a totally different mindset." In my years as a wedding videographer (and a few times as a wedding stills photographer) I have found that to be true.

 

[J. Eric Camp]

This is very true

 

[Noah Kadner]

Word I hear from WEVA folks is that it's more desirable to be a stills photographer than a video one. The attendees pay you more attention and editing stills is less labor intensive and time-consuming than a full video. So I'm wondering if you'd really want to mix the two from a perspective of time vs. money earned. Of course this is second-hand experience.

-Noah

 

[rod bradley]

I agree with John and Eric -- it is virtually impossible to do video and stills simultaneously as a one-man band and do both well -- especially at a one-time continuous event.

I speak first hand as in the not too distant past I've had a few situations arise when that became the only choice. I'm good at both -- but only concentrating on one or the other. Multi-tasking machines are one thing -- multi-tasking human beings, especially in complex esthetic expression using those multi-tasking techno tools, is quite another. This is not to say you aren't the genius who actually can pull it off. But I think most of us would experience unacceptable compromises in doing so.

 

[ericyoung]

This doesn't capture video and stills at the same time. You have to switch modes in a DSMC. However, when capturing at it's full rez, you can just pull a still out of the motion. Trust me you will be happy with the results...

Traditionally, you still have stills photographers on movie sets because motion blur means grabbing stills from the motion film results in unacceptably blurred stills in many exposure situations, and what works as a moving framing often doesn't work as a still composition.

Of course, I haven't tried doing this myself so it may be possible to get enough good stills from the RED files to be useful.

 

[ericyoung]

...The Canon 5d Mark II is appealing to me, but even if the video had better controls, I'm pretty sure you can't take photos AND video AT THE SAME TIME. You have to switch back and forth between modes which won't work for me. I guess it windows the sensor for HD recording or something. I would love to record high res photos (around 5 MP or so) and at least HD quality video AT THE SAME TIME.
...

Actually I read somewhere that it IS possible to take stills while also shooting video on the 5D MkII - I haven't verified this though. Maybe it's in an online manual somewhere.

 

[Edward Mendoza]

Hi there. . . .

Have only done video for weddings, however in many instances I was able to grab freeze frames for extras on the DVD's. They actually weren't half bad; low res but they were great shots from the more exceptional moments. Never got any complaints and in fact got complements in many instances. I think the idea is certainly worth entertaining, but certainly I think you'd agree that these events can be so spontaneous and all over the place, and you may not be guaranteed the "money" still shots all the time. I also had an instance once where only the photographer could be down by the altar, while the videographer had to stay off the grounds and up in the back balcony. You do, though, bring up the great point that higher-res stills can now be extracted from the newer cameras' footage.

 

[David Rasberry]

I recently bought a used Schneider 16mm zoom from a filmmaker who specializes in shooting weddings on 16mm film, finish on video. Interesting niche.

 

[Ryan Valle]

I also do event videography and am interested to see how the scarlet/epic would perform. At it's price range, I think it's a great buy to use for event videography. But this is all in theory because though it may be cheap, it may not be the best camera to sue to record an event that is hours long. A few reasons: the camera will get hot, file size/storage while shooting, battery.

Of course, there's a niche of clients that like their weddings filmed in 8mm. To do this, you don't film the entire event, but very key moments. The scarlet may be great at this. It's no 8mm, but it may make as a great b-roll camera to capture key moments in the day and at the end, you can use the footage to create a recap type of video, or if you have a computer powerful enough, create a same day edit to show at a wedding reception later on.

For the non-wedding types of events, the same can be applied for the camera.
Stage shows: you can use it for backstage footage, behind the scenes, or interviews from performers.
Birthday events: preparations, once again, interviews, etc.

There are endless ways on how to utilities the camera even if you can't record the full event and just segments of it. I am very excited for this and will probably get one of the fixed lens models to play with. If that serves to be a great camera and I show a need to move up, then I will. (I bought the canon xl2 with hopes of upgrading the lens, but that never happened, so I think i will go for a fixed lens. The modularity of the camera makes it great and fairly cheap to upgrade when the time comes).