Filters Start Kit: The Best choices...?

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Hi all,

Just got my MB20 and looking to get some Tiffen filters of my own... I have my idea, and I asked my DP friends, but out of curiosity, I'd like ideas from the Reduser community. In your experience, what would be the essential filters to start a kit with?

And what is your opinion on these:
-3 ND IR filters (ND3/ND6/ND9)
-1 Digital Diffusion HD (1/4)
-1 Water White Circular Ultra Polarizer

Thanks

 

[J. Bernard Vallon]

I'd add some ND grads. Something to add detail back into a blown out side of frame. Also, for a RED setup, id add an 80A filter or similar. Some people might want it, and if you have the stop to use it, its a good bet.

 

[Dominic Jones]

For my tuppence, softening filters are not a must-have for Red kits, as the camera doesn't add a ton of sharpening you have to fight and has a nice, soft tonality as standard. Plus you can add it very effectively in post. YMMV, of course.

Totally agree about the ND grads, but an 80A is a little strong to match Red's sensor - an 80B is just the ticket. It's not a bad idea to have an 80D in the set as well, for lower light/slower lens situations where you still want to give a little boost to the blues.

Also, it's all personal preference, but for my money the Schneider Tru-Pol is the best polarizer on the market - more stop loss than most (2 stops vs 1+1/3), but that's something of an advantage with the Red in most situations, and polas don't contribute to the IR contamination as they cut all wavelengths (pretty much) equally. The ultra may be the same or similar, haven't used it as always specify a Tru-Pol, so apologies if that's a moot point...

Happy shopping!
Dom.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

And what is your opinion on these:
-3 ND IR filters (ND3/ND6/ND9)
-1 Digital Diffusion HD (1/4)
-1 Water White Circular Ultra Polarizer

Don't worry about IR protection on ND filters below .9. Also not all high ND situations have strong IR to deal with. IR transmits differently through various types of lenses. IR transmission is stronger on primes and often more so on wide lenses. I'm not sure if I would mess with that digital diffusion HD filter. Circular polarizers are only necessary with auto focus systems, so you can save some money by going to a linear polarizer. However, if you intend to use these filters with the upcoming DSMC line and electronic AF lenses, you may be money ahead to spend the little extra on a Circular Pola now. I would recommend a 5.6x5.6 filter for any you intend to rotate, such as grads and pola.

My ideal filter kit for RED One would be...

ND3, ND6, ND9, IR+ND1.2, IR+ND1.5, IR Hot Mirror, polarizer, 1/4 black frost or pro-mist, 1/4 white pro-mist, 80C, FL-D.

That's a lot to just start out with. You can always skip the IR+ND1.5 to start and you probably don't need the pro-mists right off. The 80C is essential if you will be shooting a lot of tungsten light setups. FL-D if you will be under fluorescents a lot, but it's probably not necessary for most people.

From there, you can start adding other filters to compliment specific things you shoot. If you do a lot of outdoor scenery, etc.. I would recommend looking into some grads.

 

[Evin Grant]

ND .3, .6
HM+ND .9, 1.2 (Formatt seems to have the best formulation for Red Right now)
Schneider 1/4 CTB (For shooting tungsten)
Schneider Linear Tru-pol Polarizer
Schneider Classic Softs 1/8. 1/4, 1/2 & 1 (1/4 and 1/2 on a budget)

Later... ND grads, Streak filter (for music videos) CTB 1/8 and 1/2.

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

Hi there, Evin. . .

I see you are recommending soft filters here. Do you feel pretty strongly about them? Just for the softening? Or for giving blown highlights that nice vintage feel?

Thanks very much.

Stephen

 

[Lewis-M Soucy]

There are very nice ideas here, thanks. The neon correction filter sounds like a good idea too as there are many in various locations... I wonder why the 80 since the Red can be ajusted to either daylight or tungsten? Isn't that for temp correction when you have the wrong ISO... Thought I wouldn't need those...

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I would be sure to pick up a 1/4 CTB for tungsten work. It can make an enormous difference.

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

Someone explain to me why a 1/4 CTB would be preferable to a FULL CTB, since that is what takes us from 3200K to 5600K. If more blue is better, then 5600K and a full CTB should always be preferable.

Thanks.

Stephen

 

[Jarred Land]

Fog filters are making a comeback...

I would take Evin's advice.. he is a bit of a guru when it comes to filters.

Don't worry about the Linear vs. Circular Polarizer issue.. Linear filters will work just fine on Scarlet and Epic, and Linear polarizers are an unnoticeable bit more efficient.

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

Schneider CTB 1/2

 

[Evin Grant]

Thank's Jarred. As for softening the combo of the Red and modern lenses is just brutal skin blemishes. If all you shoot is nature or 20 year old make up models it's great but for actors espescially older actresses, the Classic Soft series is a girls best friend. They use small random dimples to slightly de-focus fine lines, but really doesn't affect the eyes or overall sharpness much.

The CTB filters were actually developed by Schneider upon my suggestion. :biggrin: The Mysterium and all silicon based sensors are inherently more red light sensitive. The 1/4 CTB is the best compromise for this issue. You can use the filter with the camera set to 4200k and Iso 400 (1/2 stop correction) under tungsten light and achieve a very well controlled blue channel. With little or no sensitivity hit.

 

[Joe G.]

"I wonder why the 80 since the Red can be ajusted to either daylight or tungsten? Isn't that for temp correction when you have the wrong ISO... Thought I wouldn't need those..."

No, I'm pretty sure that's wrong. Adjusting ISO on the Red does nothing to the sensor. It's just metadata. It always is balanced at 5000K at all times. This is less than 5600K "daylight", and so a slight bit less shift is fine. But, if you don't shift the tungsten at all, the blue channel will be noisy.

 

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Hi Evin,

are you suggesting (say, as a general rule or as a 'secret tip') that the best way to shoot tungsten is with the Red set to 4200k and Iso 400, with a 1/4 CTB?

I'm going to write this one down...

 

[Lewis-M Soucy]

So if I get this right, the 1/2 CTB is equivalent to the 80C, the 1/4 CTB is equivalent to the 80D and the 1/8 CTB is 1/2 the density of the 80D (which I guess could be nice in outdoor tungsten lit night without loosing too much stops)?

What is the difference between a regular tungsten filter (80...) and a CTB? Where has Schneider done something special about them CTB?

 

[Evin Grant]

Hi Evin,

are you suggesting (say, as a general rule or as a 'secret tip') that the best way to shoot tungsten is with the Red set to 4200k and Iso 400, with a 1/4 CTB?

I'm going to write this one down...

The best way to shoot tungsten is to test and decide for yourself. Personally I prefer the Red image with a bit of texture, so 400ISO and a 1/4 CTB or 5600K lighting allow me greater texture in the tow without the splotchy blue channel.
If you want the cleanest image possible expose at ISO 320 (160 ISO on the meter) and use the 1/2 CTB at 5000K, or just light daylight and meter for 320.
Lastly you can shoot 320 ISO in tungsten without any correction (or the 1/8 CTB) but you should be as accurate as possible with your exposure, and be prepared to crush your blacks a little bit.

 

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Hi all and thanks for the replies, and Jeff too since I appreciate your work as well. This filter question I ask for my personnal work. I work with great DPs all the time on commercial jobs, but there are projects I want to work on my own, and I will start using my Red on more personnal stuff soon. Small crew, indie films in Paris, with friends and the like. This is where I value all inputs in order to perfect my own image skills.

I will definitely get the ND set (all in 5.65x5.65 for my 3 stage MB20II allows and they have great coverage):

-ND3, ND6, ND9, IR+ND1.2, IR+ND1.5 (Maybe all set IR since there isn't much difference in price NDIR/ND non IR and that leaves an extra stage in my MB as well)...
-IR Hot Mirror (I wish someone could explain this one to me, I thought all IR, like NDIR were hotmirrors...)
-Polarizer, 1/4 black frost or pro-mist, 1/4 white pro-mist, 80C, FL-D.

I know very common diffusion filters series used are:

White Promist (a favorite to many people but perhaps a bit too soft for some peoples tastes)
Black Promist
Soft FX
Glimmer Glass (I like this one too)

I haven't used the digital diffusion series yet but it sounds like the most recent addition to the diffusion range and should be a suitable choice for this day and age. Am I right on the money with choosing the 1/4 (1/8 is very subtle, 1/2 is already a very pronounced effect and 1 is generally too much for most instances)...

How about the Tiffen GamColor CineFilters? The CTO (sunlight to incandescent??? When do you use that?), CTB (incandescent to daylight) is a YES, Minus Green (eliminates the peak green output of fluorescent lights, SOUNDS GOOD!) and Plug Green (incandescent to Fluorescent ??? Weird, when do you use that too?).

I'll definitely get a polarizer. I'm most acquainted with the Tiffen "True Polar" (are there any better?).

I would also be keen on:
-an "enhancer" filter to bring out more saturation in colours...
-an "Infrared hot mirror" filter (especially necessary in summer months when direct sunlight is hot and harsh. When using ND filters under such conditions you lower the visible light intensity reaching the camera sensor but not any of the infrared radiation. The change in ratio between visible light and Infrared radiation can cause a red shift in the image. This is true with all digital cameras; not just the Red camera. In order to take no risks ND filters should be used in conjunction with an Infrared hot mirror filter.

I guess I souldn't worry about IR protection on ND filters below .9. Also not all high ND situations have strong IR to deal with I gather. IR transmits differently through various types of lenses. IR transmission is stronger on primes and often more so on wide lenses. I'm not sure if I would mess with that digital diffusion HD filter (I can't figure this one out yet...). Circular polarizers are only necessary with auto focus systems I heard, so I can save some money by going to a linear polarizer. However, if I intend to use these filters with the upcoming DSMC line and electronic AF lenses, I may be money ahead to spend the little extra on a Circular Pola now (big question...). I would order all 5.6x5.6 filter for any I intend to rotate, such as grads and pola (that's where I'm smart .

THEN!... (drumroll)... My ideal filter kit for RED One would be:

- ND3, ND6, ND9, IR+ND1.2, IR+ND1.5
- ND grads (dunno which is mostly used yet...)
- IR Hot Mirror
- Polarizer: Tiffen "True Polar"
- 1/4 black frost (or pro-mist)
- 1/4 white pro-mist
- 1/4 CTB (ALL THE FILM WILL BE LIT WITH REDHEADS)
- FL-D (and maybe FL-B).

That's already a lot to just start out with. I can always skip the IR+ND1.5 to start and I probably don't need the pro-mists right off. Is the 80C essential if I will be shooting a lot of tungsten light setups? FL-D if I will be under fluorescents a lot, but it's probably not necessary for most shoots.

From there, I can start adding other filters to complement specific things I shoot. If I do a lot of outdoor scenery, etc...

As a clue for comments on my wishlist, I'll shoot a lot of scenes under natural lights (indoor, houses, lamps, etc...), a few public places with neons I guess, and a lot of outdoor, which at night will be lit with Redheads... ALL WILL BE LIT WITH REDHEADS!...

Any comments?

 

[Douglas Underdahl]

Looks to me like you have all bases covered there, Lewis, except for weird multi image and other wacky stuff that you can do in post, but which is fun to do in camera.

As for FL B or FL D, in my experience, these aren't so useful, because fluorescent tubes that aren't meant for photography (non-Kinos) are all over the place in terms of where the green spike is or isn't. And even if you have all the same brand of tubes in that office, they vary greatly depending on the age of the bulb. I often mix Kino daylight and practical fluorescents, and I've never felt the need for a FL B or FL D on the camera. Might be worth experimenting on, though.

The softening can be done in post, for sure. If you use Pro Mist or a net on the back of the lens or whatever your favorite softening is, then it's un-doable, of course, but as David Mullen said, putting on your favorite diffusion on or behind the lens doesn't add any processing time in post, and also I would add that if you do this, you have baked in your choice so that others can't or are less likely to change it. I personally have gone to doing selective softening in post but I think David's point is valid too. As Evin says, digital cameras are just brutal on skin tones. Digital cams have less latitude at either end of the exposure scale as we all know, but they also seem to take the middle zone and expand it, making faint blemishes and imperfections in skin jump out, for some reason. So his diffusion advice makes sense to me.

ND grads are a must with the RED. Knocking down the sky, or that white wall that you can't silk or net down is basic. I think a good start would be half ND 6 in both soft and hard transitions. I think the hard transition is more versatile, because used close to the lens it's a softer transition, and pushed away, it's harder.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Basic needs

Basic needs

There's great filter that Stan at FilmTools turned me on to called an Attenuator. Its basically an ND grad that goes from 2 stops on one edge to nothing on the opposite edge with no discernible transition point. Its great for cutting down the sky on a shot where you are zooming, tiliting, dollying, or some other move where even a soft edge grad would show itself.

I recommend the CTB filters over the traditional 80 series as you can feed the blue channel enough to improve the character of the noise in zones 2 & 3 without as much light loss. Its not like you need to get all the way to 5600K.

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

There's great filter that Stan at FilmTools turned me on to called an Attenuator. Its basically an ND grad that goes from 2 stops on one edge to nothing on the opposite edge with no discernible transition point. Its great for cutting down the sky on a shot where you are zooming, tiliting, dollying, or some other move where even a soft edge grad would show itself..

Do you mean a .6 ND hard edge Grad filter?