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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Carl Zeiss Super Speed Pricing History...

Evin Grant said:
Actually the ZFs are just re-mounted Contax stills lenses and have no improvements other than the coatings. In fact these lenses were designed and built in Japan by Kyocera (Contax) under the supervision and licensing of Zeiss. That does not diminish their quality but they do not share any direct lineage with Arri/Zeiss cine lenses.
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Evin,

Not so sure about the above (that they are older Contax designs, and Japanese design). I own a Contax G2 (with superb lenses), and I asked about this at Carl Zeiss Oberkochen when I was there for training. I was told the lenses are designed in Germany, and manufacturing is done in Japan, with Carl Zeiss overseeing quality control.

I do agree that they are definitely NOT the same optical designs as the cine lenses. Obviously, they have to cover an image area twice the size, and also need to have longer back focus (even though the Flange Focal Distance is shorter) due to the flip-up SLR mirror.

One more thing... trust me on this guys Zeiss does not care about making money on cine lenses in the way some of you are thinking. Carl Zeiss is a foundation. Look it up. They are not technically a for-profit company. They value their relationship with Arnold & Richter (ARRI) and they will not do anything to hurt that relationship.

Let me sum it of for those who are slow on the uptake: Carl Zeiss has NO interest in making the Super Speeds again, or making any less costly cine prime lenses. I've already confirmed this with my well-placed industry contacts who shall remain nameless.

The only seemingly solid lead is the IBE lenses. How long will it take them to get to market in quantity? It takes ARRI/Carl Zeiss about a year from NAB prototype to first deliveries (always to CSC, Clairmont, Otto, etc.)
 
Matthew Duclos said:
So Jorge,
you're saying that Zeiss will never release a more expensive version of the ZF lenses, but cheaper than a set of Super Speeds? ;)
Don't be so sure.
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They've never seemed interested in selling in volume before.

The Zeiss ZM lenses are already more costly than the ZF's.

BTW, I've noticed some Super Speed sets for sale, and looking at the pictures, I can tell that they are originally Optons that have had the name rings changed. Kinda like in Malcolm Gladwell's Blink, the statue didn't look right. When you've been working with and on these lenses as long as I have, those little differences stand out.
 
Evin Grant said:
This is actually the hardest part to achieve and the reason it hasn't been accomplished yet. To truly get a cinema quality housing with long throw, 0 tracking errors and solid repeatable seating and witness marks is a matter of precision that mass production is not capable of (This was Jorge's point). The glass is actually the easy part.
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Hey guys - for perspective... I just watched Discovery Channels
"How its made" and it dealt with high end optics for Binoculars.

I agree, now, that there is NO WAY you can mass produce lenses with all the hand finishing, glazing, testing etc... its an art form and why no 2 lenses are exactly alike.

Now I know this isnt cine glass, but it provided great insight as to WHY
those lenses cost so much money...

literally dozens of hours of craftmanship PER LENS... and again, that was just for high end binoculars... I can only imagine how long ot takes to do lenses and then add in mechanics with tolerances

all I know is $30K for 5 Zeiss Super Speed lenses seems like a steal.
 
Tim Whitcomb said:
...literally dozens of hours of craftmanship PER LENS... and again, that was just for high end binoculars... I can only imagine how long ot takes to do lenses and then add in mechanics with tolerances

all I know is $30K for 5 Zeiss Super Speed lenses seems like a steal.
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Tim,

Thanks for your post. I think some of the younger members here on reduser that haven't been in the industry that long, think the same mass-produced system that makes everything else can be translated to cine lenses.

I have been in the room at Carl Zeiss Oberkochen where *all* the cine lenses (including DigiPrimes and DigiZoom) are assembled. The room is about 1200 sq. ft., with probably about 5 highly skilled workers in there at one time.

It's not like there is a big machine going "putoom, putoom" and spitting out finished lenses. But neither is it like the photos I have seen of the assembly line at Nikon in Japan.

Cooke Optics in Leicester, England was a similar situation (interestingly a larger room, though). Technicians at workbenches each assembling one individual lens at a time.

And Cooke's system is *very* labor intensive. Each lens is assembled with no focus or T-stop marks at all. They they are focus and T-stop tested individually, by one tech. Then the lens is disassembled and the scales are engraved (and only match that lens, but they match perfectly).

The lens is assembled again and tested. Then disassembled again and the glass is cleaned, then assembled again.

(Bonus points for anyone that gets my "putoom, putoom" reference).
 
Cooke Optics

Cooke Optics

It pains me to post this. Here I am at Cooke Optics in 2005:

JDA_at_Cooke.jpg


I was at least 25 pounds heavier (squinting for some unknown reason, probably someone just told a joke) and pale as a ghost.

But they don't allow photos at Carl Zeiss. And I just love making my point visually.

Notice... No assembly line. Individual craftsmen, each with their own work area. Quite a bit more "customized" than at Carl Zeiss. Kind of reflects the cultural differences, doesn't it?

But they each produce a superb product.
 
Jorge,
Nice motocross calendar in the BG! ;)
I'd love to get a tour of the Cooke facility some day...
Maybe if I buy those other eight S4's...
Cheers,
Harry
 
Harry Clark said:
Jorge,
Nice motocross calendar in the BG! ;)
I'd love to get a tour of the Cooke facility some day...
Maybe if I buy those other eight S4's...
Cheers,
Harry
Click to expand...

There were a lot of guys that were into bikes at Cooke. Very friendly people too. If you are near Leicester, get in touch with Barrie Billington at Cooke and see if he can accommodate you.
 
Matthew Duclos said:
Hahaha, most guys notice the babes on the calendar...
I noticed the small container of Cooke back focus shims.
I can't tell you how many of those I have piled up.
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Did you notice the mischievous grin on the tech that is seated directly behind us? He had a set of Incredible Hulk giant green hands that he liked to put on. The interesting thing about Cooke is that the guys really loved to joke and have fun, but they were very good at what they do and very serious about their work.

Joking around... Not something you see much of at the Zeiss factory.

Cultural differences in effect.
 
Hi Jorge,

love the Photo! It's so British!

Hahaha.

The Swabs at Zeiss would not allow their appretice boys to leave even the broom closet in such a mess...

I've never been personally at Zeiss but at Mercedes and Porsche. I know how a machine shop at Zeiss must look like. White, grey, pehaps a bit blue, lab coat not a single stain anywhere...

Personally the Cooke way is much more my way.


Hans
 
The "Cine Lens Game"

The "Cine Lens Game"

Just like you playa hatas predicted, the price of Zeiss 35mm Mk.II lenses has dropped like a rock...

To $47,000:

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=26907

That's still more than double what I sold my Mk.II set for (and it was a hand-picked set) back in Feb 2006. I feel cheated.

But of course, I'm off my rocker because I'm offering an excellent condition fully overhauled Mk.I set for less than $35,000.-

They will be worth $5,000.- (per set) in a short time I am told, because of the amazing new products that are just about to hit the market like a tornado.

There is a big mystery machine, the size of a cargo ship, being built in the Kamchatka Peninsula that will spit out perfect copies of the Mk.III Super Speeds for 72,000 RUB (Russian Roubles) each, all day long. About one lens every 90 seconds with no labor involved.

They come out of the machine kind of hot (about 60ºC), and the glass fogs up, but in a few hours they are "seasoned" and perfect, and are totally maintenance-free so you don't have to waste any money on overpriced lens service. Oh, and the glass is scratch-proof because it's coated with a few microns of diamond. And they automatically re-set their own back focus. And they're auto-focus too.

Oh, yeah, I forgot too... They're f0.7 / T0.8. The rear element sits really close to the sensor so you have to get a modification on your RED to re-set the sensor protection window closer to the sensor.

Can you imagine if these lenses had been available when Stanley Kubrick shot Barry Lyndon? He wouldn't have needed to ruin a perfectly good Mitchell BNC, and Ed DiGulio would have been a lot less sleep deprived.

But wait, there's more...

Supposedly a Chinese company is hard at work to beat the Russians with an even lower priced set. The are hiring back all the workers that were laid off from the toy factories that are shuttered. The Chinese know they can't beat the Russians to market, but they hope to beat the Russians flooding the market with quantity, eroding the Russian market share.

So for those of you that think that small independent lens tech/used equipment dealers are laughing like Dr. Evil:

austin_powers_mike_myers_as_dr_evil.jpg


We are... Buuuahahahahaha
 
I was laughing hard reading your mail... good sense of humor, Jorge... I guess all the talk just shows how much in love we all are with those wonderful Zeiss superspeeds and how most of us wish we could own a set... or dream of somebody making them for an affordable price... a lot of wishful thinking there... I´m no exception... I´m still hoping that I will just find a set somewhere on ebay labeled completely wrong by the clueless nephew of a late cameraman who is just trying to get rid of all the stuff left in his attic...

I would love to own a set of Zeiss lenses but for $47000 I´d rather shoot a no budget feature... all the talk about gear get´s so distracting from what´s really important... at least to me... I should quit this forum, it just stimulates too many unnecessary desires...
 
It's easer Jorge.
Your lenses they are more expensive than that they are worth.
I still renting. And... maybe I will found some K35 more afrodable... Kubrik liked to that it is said... why not to me?

Andrea
 
QUOTE >Hahaha, most guys notice the babes on the calendar...
I noticed the small container of Cooke back focus shims.
I can't tell you how many of those I have piled up.<
Ha!
Matthew, funny... I noticed the shim container too.
I have a bunch of those shims as well... though I'm sure not anywhere near as many as you! They're sitting in an old plastic Chinese food container in the drawer of my "service desk". When I bought my S4's and they handed the little container of shims to me I was baffled. I almost handed them back to Guy Genin because I figured that if the lenses ever needed shimming I was only going to bring them back to ZGC anyway.
Hey everyone,
can we stop ganging up on Jorge? There seems to be a mean-spirited twist to all this "speculation". I'm sure there are lots of awesome lenses on the horizon and you all will shoot great movies really soon...
Cheers,
Harry
 
Uhmm... I'm thinking... I've got the Arri's price here... And a calculator...
New Ultra Primes 16-24-32-50-85 is... Euro 43.700 USD 55.000...

Why buy some used super speed to 47-52K USD? Somebody can tell me why?


Andrea
 
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