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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Economy price of RED ONE?

Charles, I want to point to my last paragraph because I am sincerely not trying to put your idea down, I just can not see how it would be in Red's best interest and therefore the interest to all of those who have invested to drop prices. If this camera was $25K it would still be considered a bargain. If it was $50K, less so but still not outrageous. If it was $75,000 or higher, that's a different conversation. Even at $40K, I could see your argument. That starts to get out of the price range of a lot of people. Serious shooters who are used to those prices and can get the ROI probably would still buy them. Rental houses would still buy them. And even some indies who might see some good ROI possibilities might buy them. At $40K for the basics, it's really like $50K to get going with a real rig. And way more in a lot of cases. So asking Red to drop the price from $40K, that seems like a reasonable request. At $17, 500 for the image quality that Red One delivers that seems like a cheap price compared to everything else it's competing against. Now, I will say this. I would certainly not disappointed if the Red One had come out at $15,000. I am all for getting products for less. What I would hate is to buy a product at a bargain and then find out two years later the company went bankrupt. That would not be good.

I am not offended by your post. And if you're not in the market for a camera and you were just throwing this out there as a theoretical, I apologize if it seems like everyone is coming down on you. It is a passionate forum. No bad vibe intended, at least not on my part and probably not on any of the others as well. It's all good.
 
stevesherrick said:
"This is really not reality. When you have some experience with the camera you will know that even with Nikon or Canon Glass the investment is over $20K. I've broken this down before, but here goes again."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, Steve this is my idea of a small filmmakers package...if RED would discount it.

My version:

Camera - $14.5 (discounted by 3K)
RED drive - 900
Power - $1,450
Nikon Mount - $500
Base Production Pack - $1,250
Lens from ebay - $50
LCD - $750 (somewhere else then RED)

Total: $19,400

Even if I did buy from RED LCD - 1700

with eliminating:
Red Drive - 900

but adding:
CF module: 500
Lexar 8Gb CF cards: $50

Total: $20k

Still, 20K like I suggested. I wouldn't recommend this package...because of the one lens and one CF card but you can buy from Third party vendors like Doug - Long Valley Equipment for a lightweight Base Production pack that can save you half the price of the Base Prod. package (option). The LCD can be bought elsewhere to save some dough too and then you could buy some used or brand new still lens to shoot with and some more CF cards.

Again, its just a suggestion..........
Click to expand...
 
charlesN said:
I don't know how the demand should be going up since people are losing their jobs and work is very tight. Companies are dropping their advertising budgets. You think you would be making more money in this turmoil economy. If so, great to you. I've heard its slow...and it will get slower in the next couple of months...unless something drastic is going to happen.
Click to expand...

I'm saying that since the RED is relatively cheap, it is a substitute for more expensive cameras. While overall demand is down, demand for the RED should be up by comparison. I can't be sure that this is actually the case, but from a theoretical standpoint it's sound.
 
stevesherrick said:
Charles, I want to point to my last paragraph because I am sincerely not trying to put your idea down, I just can not see how it would be in Red's best interest and therefore the interest to all of those who have invested to drop prices. If this camera was $25K it would still be considered a bargain. If it was $50K, less so but still not outrageous. If it was $75,000 or higher, that's a different conversation. Even at $40K, I could see your argument. That starts to get out of the price range of a lot of people. Serious shooters who are used to those prices and can get the ROI probably would still buy them. Rental houses would still buy them. And even some indies who might see some good ROI possibilities might buy them. At $40K for the basics, it's really like $50K to get going with a real rig. And way more in a lot of cases. So asking Red to drop the price from $40K, that seems like a reasonable request. At $17, 500 for the image quality that Red One delivers that seems like a cheap price compared to everything else it's competing against. Now, I will say this. I would certainly not disappointed if the Red One had come out at $15,000. I am all for getting products for less. What I would hate is to buy a product at a bargain and then find out two years later the company went bankrupt. That would not be good.

I am not offended by your post. And if you're not in the market for a camera and you were just throwing this out there as a theoretical, I apologize if it seems like everyone is coming down on you. It is a passionate forum. No bad vibe intended, at least not on my part and probably not on any of the others as well. It's all good.
Click to expand...


Hi Steve,

I completely agree. Its is no brainier...RED ONE is an bargain price if you look at all the camera for the last 50 years. Its a shame that those companies raped the film community and the independent filmmakers for trying to get into the 35mm or the 16mm world. Damn film dailies & IP & IN, final prints are expensive.

Again, I'm not offended at all to say the least...I was just merely suggesting a point. That it would be nice or generous that possibly RED would...I know that Jim & co care so much of this camera and his up-coming cameras and his company. Its truly amazing for him to offer this camera to the film industry like this and the Epic X upgrade, I love that. I was just read Jim's words on the "RECON" forum, and he stated many deposited members have yet to pick up their cameras and I thought to myself...probably because of the economy and its a new ballgame out there since people are scrapping by and changing their tune to the market much like not purchasing their cameras from all over the world. The exchange rates are horrible all over to the US dollar.

That's all...
 
you forgot tax.
 
Well, Steve this is my idea of a small filmmakers package...if RED would discount it.

My version:

Camera - $14.5 (discounted by 3K)
RED drive - 900
Power - $1,450
Nikon Mount - $500
Base Production Pack - $1,250
Lens from ebay - $50
LCD - $750 (somewhere else then RED)

Total: $19,400

Even if I did buy from RED LCD - 1700

with eliminating:
Red Drive - 900

but adding:
CF module: 500
Lexar 8Gb CF cards: $50

Total: $20k
Click to expand...
But there is a bit of a problem with this setup, and again I'm only speaking from my experience so far.

2 Batteries are not enough. You'd be just barely getting by and on some productions where you might not have the ability to charge the battery in time, you'd really be stuck. minimum is four in my opinion, even on small productions.

CF card shooting requires you have one or two things handy. A laptop with on-set hard drives and of course the CF card reader. Or you have a Nexto device that can backup the CF cards. By the way, the 8GB Lexar cards are a crapshoot. Some work, some not so much. There's a reason why RED sold their own. They knew they needed reliability.

Red Drive has worked really well for me, especially since I started using the ET shock mounts. No dropped frames, all levels of production from low budget run and gun to movie shoots.

I agree you can probably eliminate the base production pack and use other solutions. But they'll still cost you at least a few hundred. If you are a DIY type, then you could actually save a lot of money over the Red kit. Keep in mind though that handheld with a R1 is no easy task without proper gear. A filmmaker who wants to do a lot of handheld will need to come up with a solution. The ET one is really good, and there may be others that emerge.

Going Nikon, figure the Tokina 11-16 $600, a used 50mm 1.4 $80-200, and an 85mm 1.4 $500-1,000. This is expensive on the surface, but keep in mind two things. Red needs light, hence the speeds of the lenses and you need a true wide angle which the Tokina fills that void nicely. And at F2.8, not bad on speed for a wide. Shooting with one lens is not practical. This kit is the bare minimum in my opinion. It gives you range and speed. So factor in at least $1,000 for lenses.

The LCD theory is a bit flawed, here's why. Say you're shooting in the woods, and you don't have access to power. You'll need an LCD with battery power (expensive). Also, even on a set where you have AC you would find that you'll want the RED LCD to check menu settings. Remember, RED uses 868P to get those menus on the LCD. I highly suggest to anyone who is considering skipping the LCD or EVF to factor in the menus in your decision. Yes, the display on the back of the camera can show them too, but you will not want to work this way all of the time.

I'm just trying to help, more than shoot ideas down. It takes using the camera for a while to see what works well and what doesn't. I know indie filmmakers are resilient and will find ways to get by. I have a lot of respect for them. Some of them will do more with an HV20 then I'll ever do with a RED. But spending $20K is a lot of money if you don't plan to go a little further and set the camera up properly for shooting.
 
And just to clarify the LCD part a little further, the 1280x848 resolution that's needed for the menus goes out the HDMI and is mostly compatible with DVI computer monitors. A lot of LCD TVs won't work with this signal. Just something to keep in mind.
 
charlesN said:
I was saying since the economy is goes down the tubes...to sell more camera just a slight drop in just the camera would benefit new owners and in the result of this, new opportunities will emerge.

Of course, I know that new owners would be spending like 30-50k but its for the budget minded filmmakers that can have the camera like under 20k to shoot great images with say Nikon or Canon lenses, etc.


I don't know how the demand should be going up since people are losing their jobs and work is very tight. Companies are dropping their advertising budgets. You think you would be making more money in this turmoil economy. If so, great to you. I've heard its slow...and it will get slower in the next couple of months...unless something drastic is going to happen.

I didn't say it was great move...all I'm saying to give a bit of a break to some that would like the camera...that's all.
Click to expand...

even low budget.. the best you can get away with is 30-35.. there is alot that goes into a camera package.. you need multiple cf cards or at least 2 red drives.. at least 4 batteries.. lenses...filters... mattebox.. follow focus... tripod...head... so on..

also.. i dont know about anyone else.. but the commercial business is booming!!! at least for me.. i have worked almost 6 days a week non stop this entire month on commercials.

budget minded productions are looking very close at red and demand is at an all time high
 
charlesN said:
stevesherrick said:
"This is really not reality. When you have some experience with the camera you will know that even with Nikon or Canon Glass the investment is over $20K. I've broken this down before, but here goes again."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, Steve this is my idea of a small filmmakers package...if RED would discount it.

My version:

Camera - $14.5 (discounted by 3K)
RED drive - 900
Power - $1,450
Nikon Mount - $500
Base Production Pack - $1,250
Lens from ebay - $50
LCD - $750 (somewhere else then RED)

Total: $19,400

Even if I did buy from RED LCD - 1700

with eliminating:
Red Drive - 900

but adding:
CF module: 500
Lexar 8Gb CF cards: $50

Total: $20k

Still, 20K like I suggested. I wouldn't recommend this package...because of the one lens and one CF card but you can buy from Third party vendors like Doug - Long Valley Equipment for a lightweight Base Production pack that can save you half the price of the Base Prod. package (option). The LCD can be bought elsewhere to save some dough too and then you could buy some used or brand new still lens to shoot with and some more CF cards.

Again, its just a suggestion..........
Click to expand...


The biggest flaw with those looking to get into this camera at below rock bottom price is that you end up paying $20,000 for a camera that will BARELY get by.
The red one without it's basic needs is basically a very expensive brick. Please don't ruin your experience with this camera by shooting with one that is underfunded. When setup properly this camera is a dream to shoot with.
Click to expand...
 
Well, you could always go AC power couldn't you? Maybe if you're out in the field in the middle of nowhere I could see the four or more battery plan working but otherwise it's overkill. It would be nice to have more batteries of course as one of the RED Bricks is what? An hour and a half to two hours? Less? I can't remember. But then again, if you can get it to work, then that should be the ultimate goal.

RED One - $17,500
RED Power Pack - $1450
Nikon Mount - $500

For bare minimum storage either:

CF Module - $500
2x 8gb RED CF Cards - $330

or

RED Drive - $900

Cost savers:

Douglas Underdahl Nikon Mount Upgrade - $300
Nikon 18-200mm 3.5 DX Zoom - $600 or $700 (depending where you get it)
Prompter People Heavy Duty Tripod - $400
Redrockmicro Shouldermount Deluxe Bundle - $350
Redrockmicro MicroMattebox Deluxe Bundle - $735
Redrockmicro MicroFollow Focus Complete Package - $825

Tricky Part:

RED 5.6" LCD - $1700

or

IKAN HD LCD HDMI version - $1,000

or

Nebtek NEB70HDS HD-SDI LCD - $1,900

or

Cheap computer monitor option - $200+

Starting from scratch, what I came up with was $25,190 and that was indeed with the RED LCD and CF cards. Now, if I were to buy the same stuff right now, I would spend less as I already own some Nikon lenses, including the 18-200, and, even though I would like to have them, I don't need the mattebox, follow focus, or shouldermount, at least for now. If I were to splurge, I would probably go for the Nebtek LCD just so I could get the anamorphic stretch option. I know some of you might be surprised by the Prompter People tripod but I've found that it's a cheap and solid solution plus it fits into the barebones configuration nicely.

I didn't include sound only because it's such a personal choice but even if I were strapped for cash, I'd still have to go for the Sennheiser MKH416, it's too universally good to pass up. If I didn't want to record to camera, the cheap and effective option would be a Zoom H4 (now Zoom H4N) for recording purposes.

But you see, even though I've opted for cheaper solutions and options, the same problem is there. It's too darned expensive! $25,000 is a car. It would be mighty helpful if certain things were done to cut costs, such as RED including the CF module for free as standard versus charging extra for it. Perhaps developing better menu GUI compatibility for other LCD's instead of having to resort to the few that do support it, for instance, I'm not sure if the IKAN HDMI LCD supports the menus or not, why wouldn't it right? Maybe tossing in the AC cable would help cut things down as well as that isn't included with the power pack at all. Heck, charge all you want for the batteries but at least give us the AC cable to start with.

Other than that, the RED One is pretty much set and I can see why it would remain at its current price. I wish it were less just so I could afford it but Scarlet is coming out soon so I'm not sweating it too much. Even though I can't afford a RED One, I'd certainly stretch for that Scarlet FF35 model at $9,750. Imagine applying all of these cost saving options to that and there you go, a much less and possibly more capable camera package for, probably, about the same price as the RED One body.
 
Although some people have canceled reservations, Jim said recently they were shipping R1's out the door at a faster rate than ever. No reason to lower prices if there is a solid market at the current price. Doesn't matter what the rest of the world is doing. Maybe people are shifting from $100k+ Sony's to the RED 1 to economize.
 
David Rasberry said:
Although some people have canceled reservations, Jim said recently they were shipping R1's out the door at a faster rate than ever. No reason to lower prices if there is a solid market at the current price. Doesn't matter what the rest of the world is doing. Maybe people are shifting from $100k+ Sony's to the RED 1 to economize.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Why not buy a nearly equivalent camera for the almost the same price of what it would cost to rent.
 
zack, here is my bare minimum, just scraping by package.

Red One -$17,500
Red 5.6" LCD - new $1700 used maybe less
B4B C2-SM4010-150WH (2batt+charger)-$1000
Red drive - $900
Long valley handle - $440
Battery belt plate - $290
Nikon mount - $500
17-35 zoom - $800-$1200 used

Keep in mind this is bare bones but workable. And it's just the camera package. Haven't mentioned backup, tripods, filters, etc. This package would cost me just over $23,000. It would have serious limitations but could still get by on smaller shoots. Having a lens at f3.5 will hamper your shooting of interiors. Unless you have lots of lighting.

I would rely heavily on people who own cameras as they have sorted a lot of this out and configured camera packages that are versatile and get around some of the cameras shortcomings.
 
stevesherrick said:
zack, here is my bare minimum, just scraping by package.

Red One -$17,500
Red 5.6" LCD - new $1700 used maybe less
B4B C2-SM4010-150WH (2batt+charger)-$1000
Red drive - $900
Long valley handle - $440
Battery belt plate - $290
Nikon mount - $500
17-35 zoom - $800-$1200 used

Keep in mind this is bare bones but workable. And it's just the camera package. Haven't mentioned backup, tripods, filters, etc. This package would cost me just over $23,000. It would have serious limitations but could still get by on smaller shoots. Having a lens at f3.5 will hamper your shooting of interiors. Unless you have lots of lighting.

I would rely heavily on people who own cameras as they have sorted a lot of this out and configured camera packages that are versatile and get around some of the cameras shortcomings.
Click to expand...

Yes, but you can always bump up the ISO. That is the trade off for more focal range by going with strictly the Nikon 18-200mm DX. If you really wanted to, you could always go with one or more primes, I've gotten by on my 50mm 1.2 AIS alone and there is always the option of adding a 28mm 2.8 E-Series and a 100m 2.8 E-Series for about $100 each. That way you'd have some very good low light capabilities and have your wide, medium, and telephoto. Granted, those aren't the most obvious choices, usually it's the 35mm, 50mm, and 85mm but compromises would have to be made to keep the price down to a manageable level plus you have the option of adding wide angle or telephoto adapters to adjust if need be.

I'm with you though, if I could, I would try for high speed lenses all the way or even the straight "17-35, 28-70, 80-200 2.8" mix and be done with it. But that's preference mostly, I'd like to work quicker with zooms but I know that I'll be in situations where I can't light a darned thing so I need speed over function.
 
bobaandy said:
Exactly. You contradict yourself. With businesses going under, why would Red LOWER it's prices?
Click to expand...

Prices typically drop during recessions...to drum up business. Red doesn't seem to be having too much trouble selling Ones though.
 
different categories

different categories

Stephen Williams said:
6 days ago Jim said "But the volumes we had counted on to support our massive overtime effort to get this done quickly... just aren't there. Retail camera sales are currently off 40-50%.."
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=26468
Click to expand...

Correct me if I'm wrong but the "volumes" Jim was counting on, and are apparently now off so much, are mass-market DSLR-type camera volumes from other vendors, eg. Canon, Nikon. Red One, while cheap for a cine camera, is not a mass-market item and apparently those sales are still fine- but obviously the development effort you can amortize over say 500k unit sales is different from what you can do for 10k or 50k unit sales.
 
jbeale said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but the "volumes" Jim was counting on, and are apparently now off so much, are mass-market DSLR-type camera volumes from other vendors, eg. Canon, Nikon. Red One, while cheap for a cine camera, is not a mass-market item and apparently those sales are still fine- but obviously the development effort you can amortize over say 500k unit sales is different from what you can do for 10k or 50k unit sales.
Click to expand...

Hi,

Well the drop was enough to cut overtime on developement for Epic & Scalet.

Stephen
 
Zack Birlew said:
Yes, but you can always bump up the ISO. That is the trade off for more focal range by going with strictly the Nikon 18-200mm DX.
Click to expand...

You should not bump up the ISO on a Red, it seriously detoriates the image. You can not compare a Red in this regard to a DSLR where it can be acceptable to shoot on 800-1000 ISO. Not so on a Red. Try it and see for yourself.....
 
Heads are still spinning...!!!

Heads are still spinning...!!!

Stephen Williams said:
Hi,

Well the drop was enough to cut overtime on developement for Epic & Scalet.

Stephen
Click to expand...

Yes, that's my point. If he believed that overtime was justified he would still pay for it...but he believes its not...so that's why the EPIC X & Scarlet will be delayed.

Someone here stated you forgot tax? Well, that's not true. I think only CA and Washington has to pay tax. I'm in FL and I don't have too.

Sure, I wasn't again stating that my package was the best package route to go...but I was merely saying maybe not the camera be lowered but possilble a package discount could be done like R1, CF and batteries, Prod pack for say $19k...some incentives during these times.

Sure, when you compare to other cameras. R1 blows them away for quality and price point...I was just saying maybe offering a package deal to drum up more business if as Jim was saying 40-50% of DSLR business is down. Actually, its seems everything is down at the moment...

Except one of the RED 4K Ninjas...well, of course not you...you're a RED Ninja...only another RED Ninja can complete with you cause you're the best of what you do...and If I'm right I think there are only two 4K RED Ninja on the planet. Ha Ha...!!! Wait til the Epic X Ninja comes out...ouch!!! Its gonna to get nasty.....!!!!!!
 
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