Carl Zeiss Super Speed Pricing History...

[Gunleik Groven]

To be honest, I just feel silly NOT going for a set of 30k dollar superspeeds a year ago.
Worst business decission ever!

Waiting for RED primes... Yeah right!

 

[Jorge Díaz-Amador]

yes.
if everything will be like expected...some new kick ass german lenses are around the corner...i guess your lenses will be worth 5000 usd in the next 2 years.
- edit: no personal attack...you asked and this is a honest answer.

No offense taken.

I will say this: I am all for more availability of quality prime lenses.

I know some may think the big increase in lens prices has helped my business - but it has actually had the opposite effect. I can't buy used lenses for reasonable prices anymore. I can't pay top dollar for beat-up used lenses that will require 10 hours of labor each plus new glass in order to be in sellable condition.

But think about it this way: ARRI has been in business for over 90 years, and Carl Zeiss even longer. Yet it takes them over a year to go from showing prototypes at NAB to being able to deliver the first production lenses.

I've been to Carl Zeiss in Oberkochen. Practically the entire town is Carl Zeiss - everybody either works for them or provides support services to CZ or to the community.

And you think some small company is going to be able to do it faster than ARRI and Carl Zeiss?

Do you really think that it's possible to produce the equivalent quality for 1/4 of the price?

The auto business is much more competitive than the cine optics business, and there are FAR more potential buyers. Can you name a car that sells for $10,000 USD that can perfom as well as a $40,000 BMW?

Ever since Jim pulled of his "miracle" it seems that so many on this forum are convinced that the equivalent will happen in all parts of the industry. The expectation is for everyone to have to produce results like RED. It is not going to happen.

So I will make you a bet: If a set of T1.4 Zeiss Super Speeds is worth more than $5000 USD in 2 years from now, you have to buy me a round of beers in Berlin. If you are right, come to Miami and I will do the same for you.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

And you think some small company is going to be able to do it faster than ARRI and Carl Zeiss?

why do you think its a small company?
arri is a small company.
if lenses are made in higher quantities prices drop.
there are around under 400 Master Prime sets around the world.
There is a new market for lenses.
Owning lenses.

Yes, its absolutely possible to build lenses with the same quality as established Lenses for 1/4 of the Price.

anyway...i dont drink...but you will get your drink

and i can understand that its harder to get used lenses for your business.

 

[Jorge Díaz-Amador]

Yes, its absolutely possible to build lenses with the same quality as established Lenses for 1/4 of the Price.

You continue to fall for the misapplication of the concept of economies of scale. This concept applies very well to electronic components like the RED ONE, but not to high precision mechanical components like lenses.

High performance lens designs require very tight manufacturing tolerances. Simple mass production does not lend itself to that.

Grinding lenses to tolerances of 0.001mm in diameter and centering, and even smaller tolerances for sphericity and surface finish, don't get any easier with quantity. The same goes for the lens housings, which need to be made to within 0.01mm for most of their dimensions, or else the high performance optical formula will not work.

I have noticed, when I am servicing Zeiss prime lenses, that if an element is even *slightly* out of position, the effect on the optical performance is *huge*. The tolerances on Zeiss primes are so tight that it is very difficult to get the glass out (for cleaning or replacement) and I often have to heat the housings to get the glass back in because they are near-zero tolerance.

Compare that to a typical Russian "Super Speed" lens. Loosen up one ring and all the glass comes flying out because the tolerances are so loose.

Also, the market for cine glass, although it has grown, has it's limits. If too many companies try to compete within that market, they will find that they each get a smaller slice of the "pie". Then they won't be able to sell enough units to amortize the development costs and they will end up regretting their entry into the market.

Keep waiting for your €1500 "Super Speeds". You'll be missing out on a lot of opportunities while you wait.

 

[David Rasberry]

Jorge,

What is your opinion of the mechanical quality of the Optars you offer new?

 

[Jorge Díaz-Amador]

Illumina lenses

Illumina lenses

Jorge,

What is your opinion of the mechanical quality of the Optars you offer new?

I support the Optar Illuminas only which are sourced from Lumatech in Weston, FL. I am willing to do this because Gregory Mirand of Lumatech supports the lenses he sells with parts and provides me with technical support. He has also trained me in servicing these lenses.

Although the mechanical tolerances of the Illuminas are not as super-tight as the Carl Zeiss lenses, they are no where near as loose as the typical Russian lenses like Lomos.

The optical quality of the Iluminas is quite good. I have compared them to the Mk.II Carl Zeiss S16 primes and they hold up very well. Zeiss has an edge in contrast, but in resolution it's a close call.

That being said, I only have experience with Super-16mm format Illuminas and can't really comment on any 35mm versions.

 

[kay madsen]

They run for a long time and are easy to service and most importantly cheap, because service parts are VERY easy to find.

That might be true for the Master Primes and Ultra Primes. As far as I know it´s very hard to get any more service parts for standard and super speed Zeiss primes unless you have your secret reserve (Jorge might be able to confirm that) because when the MP´s and UP´s came to the market ARRI asked Zeiss to get rid of all their leftover spare parts to push rental houses to switch to the new lenses faster. I was told by a german lens technician that Zeiss literally squashed a container full of spare parts on behalf of Arri´s request...

 

[kay madsen]

new Zeiss super speeds prime lens set

new Zeiss super speeds prime lens set

Here comes my speculation about a new set of super speeds... Zeiss already has the ZF photo lenses out there which are the classic distagon and planar designs used for the super speeds, some of them like the 50mm and 85mm with a f 1.4 and the rest with a f 2 - f 3.5 (the latter might have only been made "artificially" slower because they have to cover full frame 35mm still cameras and at f 1.4 edge to edge sharpness wouldn´t be up to Zeiss quality standards... but if they have to cover S35 only that might be a different story)

P+S Technik offers the same ZF lenses as a rehoused cine lens version. I think their set of 5 lenses sells for under 15K but has Nikon mount only.

Just read what Zeiss says in their ZF brochure about the lenses:

They have become rare objects: Lenses for SLR Cameras with high quality all-metal construction, carefully engraved scales and with focusing rings that offer wide rotation angles. Their silk-smooth action unmistakably tells the story of precision, professionalism, realiability and durability, the same story so proudly told by the DigiPrime and MasterPrime top performance lenses from ZEISS for Hollywood´s cinema productions... 9-bladed iris for virtually perfect cicular diaphragm... "super color matched": all lenses deliver indentical color rendition. And there should be an Oscar to Zeiss for flare control for the effective elimination of stray light and internal reflections...

Doesn´t that sound familiar? I tell you, at their heart the ZF lenses are the old super speed cine lens designs revamped for the stills market. They just need to build new housings and they are ready to go... and if they can sell the ZF´s between $1000 - $2000 I´m 100% shure they can sell a new set of cine lenses for under 5K per lens.

just my two cents...

 

[Tonaci Tran]

I´m 100% shure they can sell a new set of cine lenses for under 5K per lens.

just my two cents...

sure..but at the expense of hurting their ultra prime and master prime sales?

 

[kay madsen]

sure..but at the expense of hurting their ultra prime and master prime sales?

I would say they have nothing to loose because the potential buyer of a new set of affordable high speed prime lenses is not the guy who could afford a set of MP´s or UP´s.

Let´s assume there are 1500-3000 potential buyers out there and you can sell them a lens set for 20K... that makes 30 - 60 million in sales. That market will be served by somebody sooner or later. They would be stupid to ignore it especially because a brand name like Zeiss would put them way ahead of the competiton.

 

[Tonaci Tran]

I would say they have nothing to loose because the potential buyer of a new set of affordable high speed prime lenses is not the guy who could afford a set of MP´s or UP´s.

but wouldn't the potential buyers of MPs or UPs likely end up wanting the 20k set super speeds instead, thusly undercutting that line completely?

Let´s assume there are 1500-3000 potential buyers out there and you can sell them a lens set for 20K... that makes 30 - 60 million in sales. That market will be served by somebody sooner or later. They would be stupid to ignore it especially because a brand name like Zeiss would put them way ahead of the competiton.

I agree with you here.. there is a huge hole in the market for a 20k set pl mount lens set..which looks like RED is looking to fill, IBE and some others to be announced at NAB.

Oddly, it is interesting that the Elite's are not moving like hotcakes even though their super speed 1.3 lenses are currently priced at around 5 grand each(if you buy 6 or more lenses)

http://reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=376639&postcount=37

 

[kay madsen]

but wouldn't the potential buyers of MPs or UPs likely end up wanting the 20k set super speeds instead, thusly undercutting that line completely?

I guess they would undercut it to some degree, but if they can make a lot more money on that new market they might be willing to accept that. And then there is still enough companies out there who are willing to pay a lot more for the latest and greatest piece of equipment which is also superior in optical quality and has the LDS Lens Data system which is crucial for sfx heavy productions. MP´s and Up´s have nothing to worry accept a bad economy...

 

[Evin Grant]

I tell you, at their heart the ZF lenses are the old super speed cine lens designs revamped for the stills market. They just need to build new housings and they are ready to go... and if they can sell the ZF´s between $1000 - $2000 I´m 100% shure they can sell a new set of cine lenses for under 5K per lens.

just my two cents...

Actually the ZFs are just re-mounted Contax stills lenses and have no improvements other than the coatings. In fact these lenses were designed and built in Japan by Kyocera (Contax) under the supervision and licensing of Zeiss. That does not diminish their quality but they do not share any direct lineage with Arri/Zeiss cine lenses.

Most good still optics from the last 20 years do just fine on the Red. It is really mechanics that will make or break the next "affordable" lenses. It's just not possible to really bring the price that far down on that level of precision. If it was there would be plenty of glass around now.

 

[Tony Covell]

Recently, in another thread about buying lenses long-distance, where as you would expect I stated my strong conviction that buying from a reputable lens tech/dealer (like myself and a few others that are well known here) is a much safer alternative that trying to get the "cheapest possible deal".

Another reduser member asked the question: "but you, do you think the Zeiss MKI 1.4 ex bayonet (older than me, and maybe than you ) can be morally sold at $30.000?"

As many of you know, I have a fully refurbished set of Carl Zeiss Super Speed (High Speed) T1.4 primes (Mk. I or B-Speed choose your naming convention) for sale right now offered at over $30K USD.

Am I off my rocker?

First, I *wish* the T1.4's were older than me. I'm a slightly older vintage.

Second, there is a "morality" in pricing. It is not (as many people are led to believe) whether something is "worth" a certain amount. As long as there is at least one person that will pay that price, then the product is worth it. Rather, in a true free market, where individual persons are free to choose to do business with each other - or not to, prices rarely get too far away from what supply and demand dictates them to be.

Third, another way to look at pricing for used items made in small numbers, is what would be the cost to manufacture the exact same product today? A good way to estimate that is to adjust the original price for inflation.

Lets take a look at what the original prices for these lenses were:

The only source I have for prices on the T1.4 first generation Zeiss Super Speed is the Alan Gordon catalog 1985 edition (probably the last one).

Here is the pricing in 1985:

Distagon 1,2/18mm T1.4 Bayonet mount $5286
Distagon 1,2/18mm T1.4 Bayonet mount $4523
Distagon 1,2/18mm T1.4 Bayonet mount $4305
Planar 1,3/50mm T1.4 Bayonet mount $3302
Planar 1,4/85mm T1.4 Bayonet mount $2659
Full set of 5 lenses: $20,075

So... what would that be corrected for 24 years of inflation?

Based on the (politically manipulated) US Retail Price Inflation (Consumer Price Index)

Result: $43,398.- in 2009 US Dollars

What if we use the inflation data set from ShadowStats, a non-governmental organization that compiles inflation statistics so that investors can know the real inflation rate instead of the politically motivated one?

Result: $120,831.- in 2009 US Dollars

*WOW*

Even though I know the CPI is manipulated, the result it gives is still more accurate in this calculation. For example, a set of 5 Ultra Primes, 20-24-32-50-85mm cost $49,788.- in 2006 (USA pricing).

So I think it's safe to say that if Carl Zeiss decided to produce the Super Speeds again (let's forget for a moment that many of the HS optical designs use lead glass which Zeiss can no longer use due to the E.U. RoHS law, so they would have to completely re-design the optics), it would be very difficult to sell them for less than about $50,000.- USD per set of 5.

If anyone has any additional information on the pricing of the first generation T1.4 HS lens set, please post it here. Having more than one data set to work with is always preferable. Just make sure to post what the source of the pricing is, and what year the prices were quoted.

:waaa: This is avery interesting item on this thread which I have been carefully watching.
I agree completely; However those who do not like the prices that Zeiss etc. are attracting have IMHO been caught out by the Comparitively LOW price of a RED camera. To shoot the images that you expect for use one needs to spend upto maybe 4x the amount of the camera price. This is market forces and is driven purely by demand. Is the detractor saying that if his house or car was offerred by an estate agent at 4x his expected rate he would say NO ? Of course not. The trick is to find a product that you can sell and make money with before or after you have used it.
The WWWEB has transformed all sales markets and now everybody is an expert. [Or they think so].
So in summing up, Find your lenses check out WHO is selling them and what backup are they offering.
From the dealers POV one has to make up ones mind about WHO is buying them becos I have found over the years, it ALL cuts both ways.
Kind regards to everybody. Tonycovell@talktalk.net:biggrin:

 

[kay madsen]

Actually the ZFs are just re-mounted Contax stills lenses and have no improvements other than the coatings. In fact these lenses were designed and built in Japan by Kyocera (Contax) under the supervision and licensing of Zeiss. That does not diminish their quality but they do not share any direct lineage with Arri/Zeiss cine lenses.

Contax is a Zeiss owned brand. Zeiss/Contax lenses were manufactured in Oberkochen, Germany since the late 1940´s until Zeiss started a cooperation with Kyocera in 1972 and moved production of the cameras to Japan while still delivering the lenses made in Oberkochen. They finally moved the complete production over to Japan in the early 80´s. The lenses share the exact same Zeiss planar and distagon designs that where used in their still and cine lenses, so they have a lot more in common than you might think.

 

[Evin Grant]

Sure the basic optical formulas have common heritage but so do the Nikon and Canon lenses modeled after the same Tessar, Planar and Sonar designs. The current Cosina manufactured ZF lenses have as much to do with a super speeds as any of the other Japanese formulas do. Again, I think they are fine lenses but there is this desire to make ZFs out to be the same as Zeiss cine lenses and it's just not the case. They are plenty sharp but no more so than the equivalent Nikkor or Canon lens and their barrels are better than average but not close to a real cine lens.

 

[Babu Kantamneni]

Evin,
Would you check your PM?
babu

 

[kay madsen]

Sure the basic optical formulas have common heritage but so do the Nikon and Canon lenses modeled after the same Tessar, Planar and Sonar designs. The current Cosina manufactured ZF lenses have as much to do with a super speeds as any of the other Japanese formulas do. Again, I think they are fine lenses but there is this desire to make ZFs out to be the same as Zeiss cine lenses and it's just not the case. They are plenty sharp but no more so than the equivalent Nikkor or Canon lens and their barrels are better than average but not close to a real cine lens.

Hi Evin, nobody said that the $500 - $1500 Zeiss ZF´s are the same as cine lenses, but the optical design is very good and they would be a great launching pad for building a set of quality cine lenses for around 5K. I´m shure Zeiss could manufacture a very good cine lens housing for the additional dollars, something that is way ahead of the mechanical quality of the RED 18-50 zoom.

Let´s continue this discussion after NAB. By that time we´ll know for shure if it was only speculation and daydreaming... I hope not ;-)

 

[Tim Morten]

This has been posted before, but it does have some nice actual shots for comparison...

http://ryanewalters.com/page2/files/cab173dd2420de896dd27c0dace7dc61-15.html

Optically, the ZF's seem like a real bargain. Various folks are offering some nicely geared versions (Duclos, RP, P+S Teknic, etc), though the internal mechanical quality is obviously never going to be cinema grade.

Cheers,
Tim

 

[Evin Grant]

I´m shure Zeiss could manufacture a very good cine lens housing for the additional dollars, something that is way ahead of the mechanical quality of the RED 18-50 zoom.

This is actually the hardest part to achieve and the reason it hasn't been accomplished yet. To truly get a cinema quality housing with long throw, 0 tracking errors and solid repeatable seating and witness marks is a matter of precision that mass production is not capable of (This was Jorge's point). The glass is actually the easy part.

Personally if I were to re-house or cinematize any current still optics it would be Nikon's extraordinary 14-24 and 24-70 f2.8 zooms. I'm sure these would give the Optimos a run for their money and be useable on the FF Epic when it comes around.