35mm film out may not be possible due to budget. alternatives?

[PD1]

Well I guess the title says it all. I have to slash my budget in order to get funding and the film made. What is the the best output I can use. Digital preferably 2K. How would this effect workflow and output?

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Your workflow would be the same except that you wouldn't do the final film-out step, but you will need to take your 2K or 4K RGB (probably 10-bit LOG) master and make a corrected version compliant for 2K DCI projection or HD broadcast.

If there is a chance of a film-out, then do all the steps leading up to a film-out, create a 2K or 4K RGB master, and then make whatever submasters you need for digital presentation. If you have to go to a DCI theater, then you make a master for that, if you have to project it from an HD tape, you make a master for that, etc., probably 1080P 4:2:2 Rec 709.

If a theatrical release is highly unlikely, then you could treat this as an HD project -- shoot 4K HD mode (3840 x 2160), finish to 10-bit LOG 4:4:4 1080P, then create any 4:2:2 broadcast versions in Rec 709 from that. And if you had to, then using a 1080P 4:4:4 LOG master for a film-out to 35mm is not that bad actually. It's more or less the same quality as 2K RGB.

 

[PD1]

Thanks a lot David. I've read all your other posts and have learned a great deal. The problem I have is that we do intend for a theatrical release. The theaters where I am (Caribbean) can do 2K but I am concerned about the quality of output from even a 4K master to a 2K out. I will shoot with the Red in 4K, the problem I have is how much will the efect the output?

Should I hold out for the extra funds (if they come) or shoot my film, do a 4k out, for 2K projection, shop it around and hope distributors pick up the cost. I know this is a bit out of your field, but living in the Caribbean, I really have no way of testing the outputs to see the difference.

Thanks much again and your work rocks!

 

[jpp]

The theaters where I am (Caribbean) can do 2K but I am concerned about the quality of output from even a 4K master to a 2K out. I will shoot with the Red in 4K, the problem I have is how much will the efect the output?

You *are* aware that virtually all big budget features today are scanned and DI'd at 2K -- and nobody walks out of the theater complaining?

More to the point, yours will be a very low budget production, if you can't afford a 35mm filmout. In other words, why lose hair and digestion worrying that 2K isn't "good enough"? At your presumed budget, there is likely going to be so much wrong or wanting with the movie, from a technical point of view, that resolution is the very least of it.

The other alternative is, if you need a film print, shoot 35mm. Don't know what your Red-based camera costs will be (renting? owning? buying?) but if you keep your ratio very [very] low, it could be cheaper to shoot 35mm than shooting Red and doing a film out.

 

[Zack Birlew]

I think the point is to avoid doing that film transfer. Whether you film in 35mm or not, you'll still need to make prints. If you shot in 35mm, edited that to a master, and then showed that in a theatre, that would be like recording your digital movie to a DVD and deleting all of the original project files and calling it a day. You would need to make prints from that master, so in the end you would save nothing by shooting in 35mm. If anything, as David has already listed, filming in digital is going to save you money thanks to digital projection.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

You should shoot 4K RAW no matter what, the question is whether to finish to:

4K RGB
2K RGB
1080P 4:4:4

Any of those standards can be used for high-end cinema releases, whether through a film-out to 35mm or using digital projection. Any movie shot on the Panavision Genesis, for example, was recorded in 1080P 4:4:4 and then either finished as 1080P or converted to 2K RGB.

And the truth is that it can be hard to see a big quality difference from a 4K master to a 2K version. But if you can afford to finish to 4K RGB, then at least you've got the highest quality master possible from which you can make any number of smaller versions.

But as jpp said, most Hollywood movies are finished to 2K RGB, and almost all digital projection is 2K or smaller. Even the few 4K Sony projectors out there in theaters are showing 2K DCI files.

But "2K projection" can mean different things in terms of the exact specs for delivery -- it may mean just Rec 709 HD broadcast projection or it may mean 2K DCI, so whether you finish to a 4K or 2K master, or a 1080P master, you'll need to then make a version for the projection system you will be showing it on. And you'll need to make various masters for any home video deliverables.

The only problem with not doing a film-out is being limited to digital theaters, which may or may not be a problem. There are still more film theaters worldwide than digital theaters, and some places that say they project digitally are just showing you standard def video, like from a DVD, or broadcast-quality HDTV.

You finish to an edited & color-corrected digital master and from that, you make copies, downconversions, film-outs, whatever, but you always protect your master and vault it properly with back-ups.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

You could shoot in 35mm, cut the negative, make prints with a soundtrack, and vault the negative along with a protection interpositive copy -- that's still done all the time. But almost everyone needs a video copy because eventually more people are going to watch it on video or over the internet than ever see it in a theater, even if you made "The Dark Knight", so along with your film originals, you end up vaulting digital transfers like to HD.

And if you shoot on film and do a D.I., then you end up vaulting the original film negative, the digital master, and the filmed-out negative, plus any protection copies, both film and digital, plus any submasters for home video, DCI theaters, etc.

So it's hard to avoid digital mastering these days even if you shoot film. But often the fastest and simplest way to a 35mm print is to just shoot 35mm negative in a sound projection format like standard 1.85 and anamorphic 2.40. It's just that you rarely just need a print. So you end up with all the costs of originating in film, finishing in film, and making digital masters.

 

[David Wyatt]

But "2K projection" can mean different things in terms of the exact specs for delivery -- it may mean just Rec 709 HD broadcast projection or it may mean 2K DCI, so whether you finish to a 4K or 2K master, or a 1080P master, you'll need to then make a version for the projection system you will be showing it on.

Hi David,

I was wondering what your opinion was on digital projection in Rec 709 compared to 2K DCI? Is there a noticeable difference quality-wise? I've seen some Red footage projected digitally in 2K Rec 709 and been pretty impressed - is 2K DCI giving you perceptibly more in your opinion? I'm guessing most theatres use 2K DCI, in what circumstances would they use Rec 709?

 

[David Mullen ASC]

You might see projection from Rec 709 HD videotape at a film festival (like Sundance) for example, rather than from 2K DCI files.

I haven't seen any side-by-side comparisons between Rec 709 and DCI-P3. For RED material, it might not be much of a difference compared to film-shot material, but obviously the master you are showing should be in the same color space as the projection system.

 

[Bruce Fox]

Where in the Caribbean are you, I know of 2 Red's in Barbados?

 

[Bob Gruen]

My question is: What is your business plan?

Most indies that want to get to theaters make a film with the intent of entering it into film festivals to try to snag a distributor. In this case a festival is entered with a lesser format (DVD) and the film print or digital projection content only needs to be delivered if the film is accepted. If you get into a top tier festival it should be pretty easy to get an investor to put in the funds to make the print, or you can inquire about the availability of the digital projection equipment. Is there a local festival that aquisition execs attend?

If a smart distributor picks it up they will want to reprint it and maybe touch it up as well, so you want to preserve the pathway to a 4K proof.

Bob

 

[Joe G.]

Yeah, I think the real question was about getting a distributor to come in with finishing funds.

That all depends on the film. Search the internet for "distributors" and "finishing funds" and "invest" etc. You hear stories often about this happening, but it is going to be very content specific.

 

[PD1]

You should shoot 4K RAW no matter what, the question is whether to finish to:

4K RGB
2K RGB
1080P 4:4:4

Any of those standards can be used for high-end cinema releases, whether through a film-out to 35mm or using digital projection. Any movie shot on the Panavision Genesis, for example, was recorded in 1080P 4:4:4 and then either finished as 1080P or converted to 2K RGB.

And the truth is that it can be hard to see a big quality difference from a 4K master to a 2K version. But if you can afford to finish to 4K RGB, then at least you've got the highest quality master possible from which you can make any number of smaller versions.

But as jpp said, most Hollywood movies are finished to 2K RGB, and almost all digital projection is 2K or smaller. Even the few 4K Sony projectors out there in theaters are showing 2K DCI files.

But "2K projection" can mean different things in terms of the exact specs for delivery -- it may mean just Rec 709 HD broadcast projection or it may mean 2K DCI, so whether you finish to a 4K or 2K master, or a 1080P master, you'll need to then make a version for the projection system you will be showing it on. And you'll need to make various masters for any home video deliverables.

The only problem with not doing a film-out is being limited to digital theaters, which may or may not be a problem. There are still more film theaters worldwide than digital theaters, and some places that say they project digitally are just showing you standard def video, like from a DVD, or broadcast-quality HDTV.

You finish to an edited & color-corrected digital master and from that, you make copies, downconversions, film-outs, whatever, but you always protect your master and vault it properly with back-ups.

This information is helpful. Thanks. From you both.

I will shoot in 4k and keep if there for as long as it is feasible. I may have to work on everything in 2k, fro a 2k master. What happens after that will be seen...pun intended.

 

[PD1]

My question is: What is your business plan?

Most indies that want to get to theaters make a film with the intent of entering it into film festivals to try to snag a distributor. In this case a festival is entered with a lesser format (DVD) and the film print or digital projection content only needs to be delivered if the film is accepted. If you get into a top tier festival it should be pretty easy to get an investor to put in the funds to make the print, or you can inquire about the availability of the digital projection equipment. Is there a local festival that aquisition execs attend?

If a smart distributor picks it up they will want to reprint it and maybe touch it up as well, so you want to preserve the pathway to a 4K proof.

Bob

This is my current thinking.

 

[Cristina S]

Very useful thread. Thank you.

 

[Dan Hudgins]

Costs...

Costs...

Filmout off a 1600x1200 LCD monitor does not look too bad if the gamma is adjusted and you use wratten color seperation filters for the exposures. I'm testing my three pass three gamma feature, the results look better than a single pass.

Printstock for 88minutes costs maybe $1600 to $2000 with processing.

Sound negative costs maybe $1500 since you use both edges of the film so you need 1/2 the footage, people have sound recorders, deals can be made.

If you print direct to printstock you do not have a dupe-neg cost. If you print color seps to 2302 you get better color than a dupe-neg on color stock.

I have some more work to do on my filmrecorder program, but it could be used as is. There are other people you could talk to as well, like

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=362272#post362272

==

What price have you been quoted for making a 35mm print from 2K frames?

This link has some information about labs and films that have been made,

http://nobudgetfilmschool.com/id20.html