Carl Zeiss Super Speed Pricing History...

[Jorge Díaz-Amador]

Recently, in another thread about buying lenses long-distance, where as you would expect I stated my strong conviction that buying from a reputable lens tech/dealer (like myself and a few others that are well known here) is a much safer alternative that trying to get the "cheapest possible deal".

Another reduser member asked the question: "but you, do you think the Zeiss MKI 1.4 ex bayonet (older than me, and maybe than you ) can be morally sold at $30.000?"

As many of you know, I have a fully refurbished set of Carl Zeiss Super Speed (High Speed) T1.4 primes (Mk. I or B-Speed choose your naming convention) for sale right now offered at over $30K USD.

Am I off my rocker?

First, I *wish* the T1.4's were older than me. I'm a slightly older vintage.

Second, there is a "morality" in pricing. It is not (as many people are led to believe) whether something is "worth" a certain amount. As long as there is at least one person that will pay that price, then the product is worth it. Rather, in a true free market, where individual persons are free to choose to do business with each other - or not to, prices rarely get too far away from what supply and demand dictates them to be.

Third, another way to look at pricing for used items made in small numbers, is what would be the cost to manufacture the exact same product today? A good way to estimate that is to adjust the original price for inflation.

Lets take a look at what the original prices for these lenses were:

The only source I have for prices on the T1.4 first generation Zeiss Super Speed is the Alan Gordon catalog 1985 edition (probably the last one).

Here is the pricing in 1985:

Distagon 1,2/18mm T1.4 Bayonet mount $5286
Distagon 1,2/18mm T1.4 Bayonet mount $4523
Distagon 1,2/18mm T1.4 Bayonet mount $4305
Planar 1,3/50mm T1.4 Bayonet mount $3302
Planar 1,4/85mm T1.4 Bayonet mount $2659
Full set of 5 lenses: $20,075

So... what would that be corrected for 24 years of inflation?

Based on the (politically manipulated) US Retail Price Inflation (Consumer Price Index)

Result: $43,398.- in 2009 US Dollars

What if we use the inflation data set from ShadowStats, a non-governmental organization that compiles inflation statistics so that investors can know the real inflation rate instead of the politically motivated one?

Result: $120,831.- in 2009 US Dollars

*WOW*

Even though I know the CPI is manipulated, the result it gives is still more accurate in this calculation. For example, a set of 5 Ultra Primes, 20-24-32-50-85mm cost $49,788.- in 2006 (USA pricing).

So I think it's safe to say that if Carl Zeiss decided to produce the Super Speeds again (let's forget for a moment that many of the HS optical designs use lead glass which Zeiss can no longer use due to the E.U. RoHS law, so they would have to completely re-design the optics), it would be very difficult to sell them for less than about $50,000.- USD per set of 5.

If anyone has any additional information on the pricing of the first generation T1.4 HS lens set, please post it here. Having more than one data set to work with is always preferable. Just make sure to post what the source of the pricing is, and what year the prices were quoted.

 

[Evin Grant]

That is very interesting Jorge. One small note might be that the Super Speeds are more equivalent to the Master primes that Ultra primes. I'd be curious to see what historical Standard speed lens pricing was though, for comparison.

 

[Jim McKinney]

Jorge, I just want to chime in here about "morality" in pricing: basically, there is no such thing. As long as the condition of the lenses are on the up and up, any 2 people can buy/sell a lens for whatever they agree to. No one's forcing anyone to buy a certain lens for x amount.

 

[Charles Angus]

One thing you didn't take into account is advances in manufacturing technology. By your reasoning, UPs and HSs are the same mechanically and optically, and manufactured using identical processes.

I would wager that HSs are significantly easier to manufacture than modern UPs or MPs using modern technology, and would command a significantly reduced price if made today, compared to what they cost when they were the height of technology.

Just my two cents worth...

 

[Marcus Olsen]

One thing you didn't take into account is advances in manufacturing technology. By your reasoning, UPs and HSs are the same mechanically and optically, and manufactured using identical processes.

I would wager that HSs are significantly easier to manufacture than modern UPs or MPs using modern technology, and would command a significantly reduced price if made today, compared to what they cost when they were the height of technology.

Just my two cents worth...

Got my 2 cents too...

 

[Jorge Díaz-Amador]

One thing you didn't take into account is advances in manufacturing technology. By your reasoning, UPs and HSs are the same mechanically and optically, and manufactured using identical processes.

I would wager that HSs are significantly easier to manufacture than modern UPs or MPs using modern technology, and would command a significantly reduced price if made today, compared to what they cost when they were the height of technology.

Just my two cents worth...

Charles,

That is a common misconception. I am trained to service both the HS Primes (Super Speed) and the Ultra Primes (but not the Master Primes since it's pointless without a € 200,000.- K8 MTF tester).

The design of the Ultra Primes is easier to manufacture than the f1.2 HS Primes. The UP's are able to be produced in greater numbers than the HS primes. I was told this when I did my training at Carl Zeiss Oberkochen. There are a couple of reasons:

The f1.2 optical design requires aspherical elements. AFAIK, the UP's don't have aspherical elements, which are very difficult to grind (except perhaps the Distagon 2/10mm and obviously the Distagon 2.8/8R).

The precise fit of the focus helix thread does not affect the image on the UP's (it only moves the rear section front-back and it is supported and centered by other means).

On the HS Primes, the focus helix supports the entire optical housing. The threads have to fit very tightly. This leads to a great deal of manufacturing reject rate, and requires the threads to be worked by hand until the correct amount of drag is achieved (just like I have to do after applying Emralon to build up the thread again after years of use).

On the UP's, the main housing is the same for several lenses, and a lot more parts are the same between many focal lengths. The HS primes each have a unique housing.

Optical CAD software and CNC optical grinding equipment were already available when the HS Primes were designed in the early 1970's (although today's tools are far more capable and probably have much faster cycle times).

If I'm wrong about any of this, I definitely would like to know. If anyone has info they know is correct that contradicts any of the above, please post it here.

 

[Jorge Díaz-Amador]

That is very interesting Jorge. One small note might be that the Super Speeds are more equivalent to the Master primes that Ultra primes. I'd be curious to see what historical Standard speed lens pricing was though, for comparison.

Evin,

Also from the AGE 1985 catalog (the oldest source I have):

1985 $$ | 2009 $$
Distagon T* 2/16 $2880.- | $6225.-
Distagon T* 2/24 $2740.- | $5923.-
Planar T* 2/32 $2550.- | $5513.-
Planar T* 2/50 $2430.- | $5253.-
Planar T* 2/85 $2530.- | $5469.-
SET of 5 $13,130. | $28,384.

Amazing how once you correct for inflation, the price of a set in good condition, freshly overhauled would sell for close to the inflation-corrected price of the new set 24 years earlier.

This is why I think optics is the best investment you can make.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Interesting thoughts, Jorge.

Thanks for posting,

Hans

 

[Harry Clark]

And good point about the "real" inflation index. The CPI is so rigged that it's a joke. The government can call the inflation rate lower than what it is, and not have to increase (for instance) social security payments etc. as much.
I agree that there is a bit of a "bubble" in glass right now, but a nice set of overhauled professional cine lenses will never be cheap, and rightfully so.
Cheers,
Harry

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Interesting Jorge but nobody serious with any hard earned cash would buy today any of Zeiss Super Speeds.

With that you could buy a bit less Master Primes but there are totally another lenses speaking technologically.

"To compensate for spherical aberration, additional lens elements are needed that make the lens heavier and

introduce other performance issues."

"Aspherical lenses, on the other hand, are lenses with complex curved surfaces,
offering excellent aberration correction and thereby providing superior resolution performance.
Aspherical lenses can be made smaller, lighter and in general, better than similar lenses which
employ only spherical elements."

LINK>>>

BTW, nobody can service Master Prime lenses except Arri/Zeiss Service just because of those

"unique and patented Dual Floating Elements™ technology, (that) Zeiss virtually eliminated breathing in the Master Primes".

 

[chuck colburn]

Mayby nobody can make a set of MP's better without a gazillon dollar MTF machine but that does not mean they can't be serviced (cleaning, lubing, setting focus etc.) by a competent tech. And if they were assembled right in the first place they probally can't be made better. Mayby. lol

 

[Andrea Scaglione]

Thanks Jorge.

Just one clarification, I know there is no - technically - a moral price... It was just a metaphor to explain why people go for e-bay and how the market is unbalanced right now.


Andrea

 

[Jorge Díaz-Amador]

Interesting Jorge but nobody serious with any hard earned cash would buy today any of Zeiss Super Speeds.

With that you could buy a bit less Master Primes but there are totally another lenses speaking technologically.

"To compensate for spherical aberration, additional lens elements are needed that make the lens heavier and

introduce other performance issues."

"Aspherical lenses, on the other hand, are lenses with complex curved surfaces,
offering excellent aberration correction and thereby providing superior resolution performance.
Aspherical lenses can be made smaller, lighter and in general, better than similar lenses which
employ only spherical elements."

LINK>>>

BTW, nobody can service Master Prime lenses except Arri/Zeiss Service just because of those

"unique and patented Dual Floating Elements™ technology, (that) Zeiss virtually eliminated breathing in the Master Primes".

Sanjin,

The Carl Zeiss HS primes use aspherical elements. I know for a fact that the Distagon 1,2/35 has one, and the 18 and 25mm probably do as well (possibly even more than one on the 18mm). In typical German fashion, they did not advertise the fact (probably because not all focal length needed the Aspherical element).

The problem with servicing the Master Primes is that the optical centering is lost when you dissasemble the lens. This then requires the off-axis MTF tester (there is not one in North America) to re-center the optics. It's a *very* complex design. Basically a very short range zoom.

The Ultra Primes are much easier to service. I can do it right here in Miami and I have the special tools.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Recently, in another thread about buying lenses long-distance, where as you would expect I stated my strong conviction that buying from a reputable lens tech/dealer (like myself and a few others that are well known here) is a much safer alternative that trying to get the "cheapest possible deal".

Another reduser member asked the question: "but you, do you think the Zeiss MKI 1.4 ex bayonet (older than me, and maybe than you ) can be morally sold at $30.000?"

As many of you know, I have a fully refurbished set of Carl Zeiss Super Speed (High Speed) T1.4 primes (Mk. I or B-Speed choose your naming convention) for sale right now offered at over $30K USD.

Am I off my rocker?

.

yes.
if everything will be like expected...some new kick ass german lenses are around the corner...i guess your lenses will be worth 5000 usd in the next 2 years.
- edit: no personal attack...you asked and this is a honest answer.

 

[Evin Grant]

I don't think so. Even if there are some new lenses coming they will take time to come to market in quantity. They also need to build a reputation (Unless they are Zeiss or Cooke) that will allow a producer to feel confident paying a reasonable rental price. If all you need to please is yourself that's one thing, but when your kit goes out for over a thousand dollars a day the people renting it want a known commodity. Not to mention that there are still 5000+ Red Ones and soon Scarlets and Epics, it's going to be a very long time before the new lenses will be able to satiate demand, and there will be a premium price for any Standard/Super/Ultra/Master/S4 or Optimo lens that is available for purchase NOW. Because if you have a project that just got green lit then it doesn't matter how good or cheap the new lenses are if you can't get them in time to shoot/rent them. I do think glass prices will settle down, but not as much as you seem to think. Assuming these new sets are not Zeiss/Cooke and cost $25K for 5 I'd guess that PL standards and B speeds will settle at the same place. MII supers will cost $10K more and MIII will be $5-10K more than those. If Zeiss comes out with a T1.3 set for $25K (I seriously doubt it) then all bets are off, but don't expect them to hit in quantity, there's an almost year long waiting list for UPs right now.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

evin, you know a lot.
but not everything...and the guy who will pay 30k for 20year old school lenses should buy them because he really really loves them and doesnt see them as an investment.

---and one year waiting list for UP`s...i have different sources then you...

evin i dont want to attack you.
if you are thinking about investing 100 000 usd in lenses...please think more then twice about it.

if you have projects for a "fast" ROI go for it.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Interesting Jorge but nobody serious with any hard earned cash would buy today any of Zeiss Super Speeds.

Sanjin,

I guess I'm a Clown.


Hans

 

[Darren Orange]

I've heard great things about the Elite Super Speeds and I know theirs a waiting list but their prices are pretty reasonable for a new lens with warranty...Granted they are large for the most part.

 

[Evin Grant]

evin, you know a lot.
but not everything...and the guy who will pay 30k for 20year old school lenses should buy them because he really really loves them and doesnt see them as an investment.

Huh? Does anyone seriously buy cinema glass "not" as an investment? I suppose the odd billionaire enthusiast (I can only think of one, he he). Just to clarify I mean as an investment in a package for shooting or rental, not just to flip.

Also I'm about as critical of Super Speeds as anyone here on the board, I could have gone with supers but preferred the look and focal length choices of standards. But I really feel there are no "bad" PL mount Super or Standard speeds. Even the 30+ year old Cooke Panchros seem to be coming back in vouge (See the Panavised set for sale in this very category)

---and one year waiting list for UP`s...i have different sources then you...

evin i dont want to attack you.
if you are thinking about investing 100 000 usd in lenses...please think more then twice about it.

That was as of 6 months ago so demand might have caught up some but still. Unfortunately at this moment twice is all the thinking you can do, Zeiss or Cooke, the Elites are interesting but not really taken seriously. The new lenses coming out might change that a bit but it won't be soon, and everyday more PL mount Red Ones are sold.

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

Ok here's my 2 cents

Zeiss primes is the work horse of the industry. They've been around for 20 years ++ because they're reliable in their design and performance.

Every lens technician on this planet can fix them (Im exaggerating of course so don't take any offense Jorge).

They're like buying a decent BMW in Germany. They run for a long time and are easy to service and most importantly cheap, because service parts are VERY easy to find.

UP's are more like a Porsche. Still reasonable but definitely more expensive. In their performance both are close, but a Porsche is more of a sports car.

Now a Producer will understand when he's renting a BMW or a Porsche, but other lenses except for the "Ferrari's" (Master Primes) etc, is a harder sale.

Next thing that makes Zeiss Primes very desirable is size. I love S4 and shoot them or MP's all the time, but if I would not have the luxury of having others doing all the hard work for me. If I were to be shooting handheld myself a lot of the time. I'm the one lugging the gear around and I'm the one who has to consider the service costs.

Well then I would truly consider smaller lenses that can be serviced easily anywhere on this planet.

Now as for new lenses coming to the market I find that exciting and is really looking forward to it, but I don't expect them to take a lead for a long time.


Just my 2 cents.