Buying lenses long distance

[Jim McKinney]

On a thread that was recently shut down, I posed the question as to how others would handle the purchase of lenses long distance.

One response was along the lines of: "Well, if I have a good feeling about it, I'd go ahead." That same respondent then asked what my parameters were. Here's how I feel about it.

Having a good "feeling" about it is a very poor way to go about it. And looking at a picture on the web, while a start, is a terrible way to judge a lens. You need the opportunity to physically verify that the lens is in good working order, both mechanically and optically, or at least evaluate its overall condition. For this, I take it to a qualified lens technician (in my experience it's been with Victor Duncan, Clairmont Camera, or DuClos - all of which were fabulously helpful).

Invariably, every lens has issues (or characteristics, if you will). Some of these are quite nit-picky and I would NOT use these to negotiate the price down. Others are of the more substantial variety (a zoom that tracks substantially off axis, or a lens element that is not seated quite properly). To the degree it takes to correct these issues, I request a discount - as I negotiate a price based on the understanding that the lens is in good working order.

This method has the additional advantage that I learn a great deal about lenses in general every time I do this, as well as the specific qualities of my lenses.

So, if I'm buying lenses long distance, I need the seller to do a few things. First of all, I need their name, phone number and verifiable address. Also, I need to have them inspected by a real live lens tech before I fully commit to the purchase. I can't see purchasing a lens any other way. But that's why I posed the question on an earlier thread, to see if there were alternative ways to safely make such an investment.

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

The way I see it and I have gone about with this matter is that if you're prepared on servicing them as soon as they arrive, then you have a win win situation.

So if you're feeling is good and you are prepared, mentally and financially, to do that service then it generally works out.

I've found that lenses needs constant service. I've ordered lenses from very well respected brokers and still found myself servicing them, of course less of a service then from others, but still.

Glass is like a car. It's expensive and the more expensive it is the more it costs to service.

 

[Andrea Scaglione]

To Jimarri: you are right, but the question, if I rember was about an e-bay issue. So, for now, on e-bay the feeling it's all you have. Sure is not enough. The problem is in e-bay. Think that they can't force a seller to sell the products if an auction is won. Immagine if they can control the quality of the sellers...

But, other side, it's a free market, the "official" market right now it's, I think, a little bit "addicted" if you know what I mean. Duclos sell a set of Superspeed MkIII to $52000 (other sell the MKI around the $30000. Let's go! Are old lenses ex-Arry Bayonet I think) It's a little bit too much I think. That's why some people can sell (and other like me have to buy) on e-buy.

Andrea

 

[Robert Horwell]

If i am buying from ebay i allways check the feedback and check what the feedback is for, if the seller has sold 1000 stickers and has 100% feedback but then is suddenly selling a 20K set of lenses, that usualy sets alarm bells ringing for me, and look how long the seller has been trading. Then i ask for a contact number so I can talk to them, usually i can get a more accurate feeling from asking a few well placed questions than from emails.

 

[Jorge Díaz-Amador]

Caveat Emptor Optica

Caveat Emptor Optica

Buying costly lenses on eBay is agreeing to marry a mail-order bride and being legally married to her before you even know what she really looks like or who she is at all.

EBay requires payment before the item ships. So, are you going to spend $20 - $40K on lenses sight-unseen?

Let me tell you from personal experience: There is no way you can tell what condition lenses are in by photographs. Period.

I once bought a Zeiss Vario-Sonnar 10-100 T2 Mk.II from an eBay seller in South Africa (but it was an outside-of-eBay transaction). He had sent me plenty of pictures of the lens. But when I got it, I realized it has several deep scratches on the front element (over € 1000.- for a new element). He had cleverly taken the photos so that the scratches were obscured by the refections in the glass. The lens also looked like it had been rolling around on the floor of a jeep riding across the African countryside.

I ended up having to regrind and re-coat the front element and re-anodize the lens barrel. Fortunately it was for a client that could afford to pay the market price at the time about $8000 with Super 16 conversion & PL mount) so I could absorb the cost of the major overhaul.

But I realized that buying lenses on eBay or other sight-unseen situation, especially long distance, was a crapshoot.

I've had RED newbies come to me with lenses they have bought on eBay (looking for the cheapest deal). As soon as I look though the lens I can see that it is totally fungus damaged. It always saddens me to tell them that it is not worth it to repair the lens and all they have is an interesting paperweight. But if they had trusted me and been willing to spend a little more I could have saved them from that.

Just by looking at photographs, there is no way you can be sure that the glass is not scratched, that there is no fungus damage, and obviously, you can't see image shift or de-centering.

I know there are some on this forum that believe that myself and other professional used cine equipment dealers are part of an "international lens cartel" that is colluding to keep prices artificially high.

That is about one of the dumbest things that I have ever seen stated on this forum. Nothing could be further from the truth. Prices are always negotiable. And what gets you negotiating power as a buyer is to have the money ready to go. If I get an offer today for a lens or set of lenses that is 20% below asking price, and the buyer is ready to wire payment, then that deal is likely to get made.

And you are far better off buying from someone like myself, or the other reputable lens technicians (you all know who they are so I don't need to mention their names, as they are getting plenty of free advertising on this site). None of us would willingly ship out a lens that had any major problem. Our most valuable asset is our reputation for quality. That is why we are wiling to accept returns.

And in the 10 years I have been doing this, I have only ever had to issue one refund (a eBay buyer who bought a set of Zeiss 35mm T1.4's and then claimed he thought they were T1.3 Mk.II's even though I CLEARLY identified the lenses in the eBay ad and had plenty of photos). I gave him back his money anyway and had the lenses sold to another buyer within two weeks.

I wouldn't sell a fungus damaged lens even if the customer knew it had fungus and didn't care. Ditto for de-centering or image shift. Sometimes coating scratches don't affect the image noticeably, so if they are light they can be left untouched. But I'm going to make sure the buyer knows they are there.

If getting the cheapest deal is so seductive to you that you are willing to take the risk of buying worthless lenses, or lenses needing thousands of dollars in repairs, then go on eBay and take your chances.

If you want a set of lenses you can go out with and shoot the most important job of your career tomorrow, then come to the professionals. And if you think a price is too high, just contact the seller privately and make your offer.

 

[laguun]

Buying costly lenses on eBay is agreeing to marry a mail-order bride and being legally married to her before you even know what she really looks like or who she is at all.

EBay requires payment before the item ships. So, are you going to spend $20 - $40K on lenses sight-unseen?

Let me tell you from personal experience: There is no way you can tell what condition lenses are in by photographs. Period.

I

with the upcoming *new*prime lenses from germany in 2009, buying used lenses will be a bad alternative for prime sets, no matter how good the lens was serviced.

 

[Robert Horwell]

with the upcoming *new*prime lenses from germany in 2009, buying used lenses will be a bad alternative for prime sets, no matter how good the lens was serviced.

which new lenses are these?

 

[Rich Schaefer]

Option 1 Go to the lenses and test them.

Option 2 have a reputable rental house in your area receive them and test them. They only release them to you when the seller OKs it.

Option 3 Go for it and cros your fingers.

Always - Trust your instincts!!!!!!!!!!!

I have bought 11 of my 12 lenses used. All were decent clean glass, at the most they just needed a few hundred $ for cleaning, shimming and set-up.... Good Luck!

 

[Jim McKinney]

with the upcoming *new*prime lenses from germany in 2009, buying used lenses will be a bad alternative for prime sets, no matter how good the lens was serviced.

Yes, tell me more.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Sample baseline images for lens comparison?

Sample baseline images for lens comparison?

I know that buying lenses long distance is unwieldy..Particularly if the seller does not do paypal and is located in 'certain' geographic regions. I was wondering if there is a way of at least hedging your bet by using some standard color chart/ focus chart, fstop, lighting still photos from the lenses so at least you know.. ( okay this edge of frame shows some distortion, or this contrast lever is different than a Cooke in this part of the frame etc..) so that you can compare at least the optic characteristics 'apples to apples'. Maybe you could even use a color level readout from a specific software source to verify levels on the sample frame?
Do any of the lens gurus here on Red user use a standard set of setups that would help? I don't mean the focus setups an AC would use on camera check out and I know you would not know the mechanics well but you could at least say.. Okay a converted LOMO makes this "standard" look different than a Zeiss in this certain way..
Any tips?

BTW the reason I am asking this is not only for my own use but I am thinking about offering an "escrow" check out service for the RED user community where my location here in Scandinavia might allow me to act as a buyers agent for some of the East or West European sellers if I am travelling somewhere anyway to check out my own potential lens purchase. Unfortunately I would need some expert criteria to report back with.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

which new lenses are these?

some really nice ones...still a secret

 

[Andrea Scaglione]

I know there are some on this forum that believe that myself and other professional used cine equipment dealers are part of an "international lens cartel" that is colluding to keep prices artificially high.

That is about one of the dumbest things that I have ever seen stated on this forum. Nothing could be further from the truth. Prices are always negotiable. And what gets you negotiating power as a buyer is to have the money ready to go. If I get an offer today for a lens or set of lenses that is 20% below asking price, and the buyer is ready to wire payment, then that deal is likely to get made.

And you are far better off buying from someone like myself, or the other reputable lens technicians (you all know who they are so I don't need to mention their names, as they are getting plenty of free advertising on this site). None of us would willingly ship out a lens that had any major problem. Our most valuable asset is our reputation for quality. That is why we are wiling to accept returns.

And in the 10 years I have been doing this, I have only ever had to issue one refund (a eBay buyer who bought a set of Zeiss 35mm T1.4's and then claimed he thought they were T1.3 Mk.II's even though I CLEARLY identified the lenses in the eBay ad and had plenty of photos). I gave him back his money anyway and had the lenses sold to another buyer within two weeks.

I'm happy to listen that it's possible a negotiation. Obiouvsly these statment are part of an advertising. I'm happy to listen that you refund when an issue happen. But otherwise you would be outlaw...
You are right when you say that make business on e-bay it's dangeous, but maybe you are not the most apropriate person to declare solemnly that... For example if I were an e-bay seller I would never ever written this answer...
I don't think at all there is an "international lens cartel", I think only that with so many RED (and so many P+S Tecknik - why the 1.3 are very wanted? - ) the market is naturally go up. And many people, prepared as you - or even improvvised experts - make business on the situation of few lenses and many requests. But there is business and business. I don't wanna talk about others, but you, do you think the Zeiss MKI 1.4 ex bayonet (older than me, and maybe than you:clown2: ) can be morally sold at $30.000? Or here it is riding the wave? It's really really normal, and human too, to search out in some darks and dengerous places like e-bay.
Nothing personal. (and I prefer the images from the Standard 2.1 anyway ;-)

Andrea

 

[Andrea Scaglione]

with the upcoming *new*prime lenses from germany in 2009, buying used lenses will be a bad alternative for prime sets, no matter how good the lens was serviced.

Send a PM

 

[Ash Bolland]

with the upcoming *new*prime lenses from germany in 2009, buying used lenses will be a bad alternative for prime sets, no matter how good the lens was serviced.

Tells us more!

 

[Jorge Díaz-Amador]

...I don't think at all there is an "international lens cartel", I think only that with so many RED (and so many P+S Tecknik - why the 1.3 are very wanted? - ) the market is naturally go up. And many people, prepared as you - or even improvvised experts - make business on the situation of few lenses and many requests. But there is business and business. I don't wanna talk about others, but you, do you think the Zeiss MKI 1.4 ex bayonet (older than me, and maybe than you:clown2: ) can be morally sold at $30.000? Or here it is riding the wave?...

Andrea

Ciao Andrea,

I have answered your question on the "morality" of used lens pricing in great detail (including historical pricing), but have decided that it deserved it own thread:

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=374573#post374573

 

[Andrea Scaglione]

Ciao Andrea,

I have answered your question on the "morality" of used lens pricing in great detail (including historical pricing), but have decided that it deserved it own thread:

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=374573#post374573

Thanks Jorge! (now I go and read..)

 

[Robert Horwell]

some really nice ones...still a secret

Please tell me..please, i am just about to shell out a load of cash on some glass and if there are some very nice bottles coming out some time soon, well i would rain down copious amounts of thanks for any info and time frame.:help:

 

[Andrea Scaglione]

Please tell me..please, i am just about to shell out a load of cash on some glass and if there are some very nice bottles coming out some time soon, well i would rain down copious amounts of thanks for any info and time frame.:help:

Help me too...

 

[Jorge Díaz-Amador]

Please tell me..please, i am just about to shell out a load of cash on some glass and if there are some very nice bottles coming out some time soon, well i would rain down copious amounts of thanks for any info and time frame.:help:

You guys are just buying into baseless speculation. You should be looking to make the best deal you can get now. I've been in this business over 15 years and baseless speculation has always been around. If it sounds too good to be true - it is too good to be true. It has been - every time.

As for the Band Pro rumour... ARRI has the exclusive right to sell Carl Zeiss lenses for motion picture (cine) cameras. Band Pro sells the Zeiss Digi-Primes which are not cine lenses (although they are just as, if not more costly).

Also, hasn't anyone noticed the obvious fact that the P+S Technik Zeiss ZF primes are still in Nikon mount? Perhaps so they could argue that hey are "stills lenses still" (sorry, couldn't resist). ARRI's deal with Zeiss is still in effect, and I see no reason why Zeiss would want to hurt their long standing relationship with ARRI.

Beyond Carl Zeiss the only other optical companies in the E.U. that could pull this off are Leitz and Cooke. I hear a lot about Russian lenses, and sometimes the optics are good, but supply problems and political instability are a fact of life in that part of the world.

And why would Canon or Nikon want to help out the upstart competitor RED who is soon to release a digital stills camera?

Come on guys!

 

[Andrea Scaglione]

You guys are just buying into baseless speculation. You should be looking to make the best deal you can get now. I've been in this business over 15 years and baseless speculation has always been around. If it sounds too good to be true - it is too good to be true. It has been - every time.

As for the Band Pro rumour... ARRI has the exclusive right to sell Carl Zeiss lenses for motion picture (cine) cameras. Band Pro sells the Zeiss Digi-Primes which are not cine lenses (although they are just as, if not more costly).

Also, hasn't anyone noticed the obvious fact that the P+S Technik Zeiss ZF primes are still in Nikon mount? Perhaps so they could argue that hey are "stills lenses still" (sorry, couldn't resist). ARRI's deal with Zeiss is still in effect, and I see no reason why Zeiss would want to hurt their long standing relationship with ARRI.

Beyond Carl Zeiss the only other optical companies in the E.U. that could pull this off are Leitz and Cooke. I hear a lot about Russian lenses, and sometimes the optics are good, but supply problems and political instability are a fact of life in that part of the world.

And why would Canon or Nikon want to help out the upstart competitor RED who is soon to release a digital stills camera?

Come on guys!

Then what the expert's advice? (Apart from suicide?)

Andrea