The FF35 system

[Tom Lowe]

rory, that will not happen. the brains and sensors are linked. period.

if you are happy with S35 and your S35 glass, then get an S35 DSMC. Jim has very explicitly stated that there will not be an S35 Monstro any time soon. we should stop beating that dead horse.

if you are worried that the FF35 Monstro will clean Mysterium X's clock (which it probably will) even windowed at S35, then hold off on your purchase and wait until FF35 Monstro hits. at that time, you can decide.

if you feel you still want S35 Mysterium X, you can probably pick up a used S35 DSMC brain at a very nice discount in the marketplace here or on ebay, for example.

 

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

For Zeiss to make the DigiPrimes, BandPro had to order 1,000 lenses. Anyone here want to do that?

Stephen

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Hi,

For Zeiss to make the DigiPrimes, BandPro had to order 1,000 lenses. Anyone here want to do that?

Stephen

But, for Zeiss to put PL mount on declicked ZFs, the deal would probably make more economic sense. I am sure we could flog 1000 lenses here for a grand each. That's $1m. Anyone interested to break a deal with Zeiss?

 

[Stephen Williams]

But, for Zeiss to put PL mount on declicked ZFs, the deal would probably make more economic sense. I am sure we could flog 1000 lenses here for a grand each. That's $1m. Anyone interested to break a deal with Zeiss?

The Zeiss deal for DigiPrimes was nearer $30m!

 

[Michael Lindsay]

A couple of pennies worth...

Modern S35 glass can produce an imaging circle larger than we currently use on Red...

the S35 Epic is a larger sensor already

Not only will there be a non-subtle FOV changes from a 25mm+sensor width but there will be additional down sampling advantages (theoretically quantifying this is not my area of expertise)

If the sum of more modern chip design, better read noise, better pre-filtering and extra downsampling gains equals:

over 1 stop basic advantage over Red 1
less noise in the shadows
1/2 stop faster
LESS compression

The S35 will simply be a 'no brianer' to many Red 1 users why? Because the FF35 is very unlikely to be a few months away and the s35 will be cheap and available...

Also creating fast set of S4/UP/MP quality range of lenses for a PL mount with a FF35 imaging circle is not trivial and I doubt anyone would make a serous effort before really knowing there would be significant sales opportunities (How many people ordered the Uncompressed option from Red?)

Michael (looking forwards to getting the most out of his lenses)

 

[Stephen Williams]

A couple of pennies worth...

Modern S35 glass can produce an imaging circle larger than we currently use on Red...

Hardly surprising as the diagonal of the recorded area is less than Acedamy 35. Old Cine glass also covers!

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Fully agree with you, Michael. I am planning to get Mysterium-X (S35) as soon as it is available. It is actually slightly larger than S35 and all Master Primes cover the entire chip. When FF35 becomes available, I will simply buy Scarlet FF35 brain as a second camera.

And, yes most long cine lenses cover FF35mm. It is only the wider once that may vignette.

 

[Ryan Koo]

First post in these hallowed RED halls, so please don't jump all over me if I'm out of the loop. My question is this: will the FF35 RED Electronic Lenses at f2.8 compare somewhat to the DOF you'd get with a S35 sensor with a T1.9 lens?

If so, why is there so much talk about whether or not the FF35 format will catch on and whether there will be lenses available, considering RED has already announced a complete set of FF35 lenses they'll be selling themselves? Seems like a nice shallow DOF at f2.8 in conjunction with the increased dynamic range is a no-brainer.

Are you guys expecting RED's lenses to be prohibitively expensive, oft-delayed, or do you not consider them to be "cinema-grade?" Just wondering why the announced RED lenses are being seemingly discounted in this whole discussion.

 

[Häakon]

Are you guys expecting RED's lenses to be prohibitively expensive, oft-delayed, or do you not consider them to be "cinema-grade?" Just wondering why the announced RED lenses are being seemingly discounted in this whole discussion.

Mostly, I'm considering them to be non-existent. And sure, the cameras don't exist yet either - but we're still waiting on the prime set for the original RED ONE to show up and that camera has been out for a year and a half now. I think all of your questions are valid here... we really don't know how they will perform, how much they'll cost, or when they'll be available. When they do finally ship, in what quantity will they be shipping? With very little other option besides using still lenses for motion picture work (not acceptable to many), there is no other choice. And as many productions rent glass, what will you be shooting with if your rental house wasn't early in line for the lenses?

Granted most of these issues will likely be smoothed out by 2011, but I don't think anyone wants to sit around and wait for two years before they can use their new $33,000 camera optimally. That's why I believe the vast majority of users who purchase a FF Epic will be using it with s35 lenses for a good while... and while there is nothing inherently wrong with this, it's important to note that you will be recording in less resolution than you get from the s35 camera.

 

[Michael Ragen]

Does anyway think that maybe the reason the Red primes are taking so long is that they are trying to make sure they cover FF35? Just a thought.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

^ if they were the same set that would be S-I-C-K

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Does anyway think that maybe the reason the Red primes are taking so long is that they are trying to make sure they cover FF35? Just a thought.

I'm really hoping so. I doubt that's really the case, but it would be nice. The prospect of the FF35 and 645 cameras is really making me pause and think about my reservation for the RED primes. At this point, I plan to transition to the FF35, perhaps the 645 if the budget allows and I will be seeking glass to cover at least FF35 as I do and will probably not invest any more funds into more S35 glass.

 

[Alec Morris]

i think the x factor here is the big names... which new model is Steven Soderbergh going to shoot on? and what if the new sensors are what other directors are waiting for to switch to digital? or even switch to red? (i'm thinking of finchers nike commercial :biggrin: ) peter jackson and ron howard are already shooting vfx on red. i think we all know what company they will be coming to when they want to switch. if Soderbergh (who shot the argentine anamorphic, which makes me think FF35) and say Jackson decide to shoot on the FF35, i imagine we will see glass that covers the FF35 sensor much sooner than we expect

also, how do you guys think the rental market will respond to this new wide array of possibilities from RED? how much (obviously speculative) will the different models rent for? and what will it take for a production to justify renting an EPIC FF35 over an s35, or even going EPIC over scarlet?

 

[Robert Sanders]

Don't forget that lens companies like Panavision and Cooke have made custom lenses for folks like David Fincher, Michael Bay and James Cameron. For instance, Panavision made a custom one-of-kind (at that time) 20mm anamorphic wide-angle for "Pearl Harbor". That lens is now a permanent part of the rental catalog.

So, yes, A-list filmmakers can get lens companies to do a LOT for them.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

A-List filmmakers can do this I suppose.. But I also think 10,000+ cameras out there with FF35 or larger sensors would be quite a good reason for lens companies to jump at the opportunity. IMO, I'm expecting more from Canon, Nikon, Sigma, etc.. There's going to be a big market for FF35 glass that doesn't breath, has smooth mechanics with free-traveling iris, good tracking, etc.. Unfortunately the big camera companies move slow and with the current economic situation, massive pay-cuts and layoffs, I don't know what to expect. But I think that if anyone could have a set of FF35 cine primes ready for a really good price (like 5 primes for $25K or less) by the time RED ships their first FF35 camera, this lens company could have several thousand sets pre-sold in a blink of an eye.

 

[Alec Morris]

good point jeff. i guess we all need to make the effort to make it known that people aren't just dreaming about the ff35, but are actually getting the money together

 

[Alec Morris]

mostly with so many new options from red, its hard to know which models people are actually going to buy, and in what quantities. thats why i would imagine lens companies could use some motivation from us

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Aside from not knowing which specific model, FF35 coverage will certainly gain popularity, even if the target prices and delivery dates are missed by a small margin. I couldn't begin to guess a number, but there is no doubt that, just as Jeff put it, thousands of sets would be presold one way or an other unless Red starts charging Sony prices.

 

[Michael Panfeld]

IMO, with the rumors circulating over Leica releasing cinema primes (I think it's all but actually confirmed but the specs), I'm hoping that they may provide some FF35 support. There's also the RED primes that are over-due. Perhaps there is an FF35 connection with those? I know it's a lot of speculation, but also there are some real possibilities here. At times I'm half tempted to go ahead and put the Nikon mount on my RED and get that set of modified ZF primes from Duclos. They seem to work really well and produce great images for a good price. And will cover FF35. Quite honestly at this point, if the upcoming RED primes do not cover FF35, I may pass on my reservation for them and continue to rent various primes until I see what FF35 offerings will be available for the upcoming EPIC / Scarlet systems.

I think Dalsa just came out with a series of Primes. Called 4K. They may have a larger image circle, but I can't find any prices or sellers.Not even Dalsa itself.

That said, I'm going to chime in here. My choice is the FF35 chip. I am lucky enough to have several complete sets of lenses, including a complete set of Super Baltars, a complete set of zooms, a complete set of LOMOs, a complete set of LOMO Speeds, and a complete set of pristine Canon FD still lenses. I will match the lenses to the job. The FF sensor gives me the flexibility to choose frame size. But most importantly, I want that DR!!

The upcoming wireless FF from Viewfactor (sigh) will largely solve the issue of critical focus on the Canon still lenses. ( My Canon FD glass has very little breathing.) To me the FF35 Monstro sensor is perfect.

 

[Lenny Manfred]

i love it. you guys go nuts trying to predict the future. clearly very few of us are good at that, otherwise we would have bought all the superspeeds that where available before the red one came out.

and you keep trying to prove each other wrong. there is no right or wrong here, just difference of needs. if you want ff35 get it, and wait for lenses. i prefer to go with what is here now, the format that is supported with a great number of fantastic cine style glass.

and it doesn't matter either. i thought the whole point of this "modular" system was to have more options. you don't have to choose one. you can buy all the "brains" you want, and use them for whatever specific project you have. i myself plan to get at least three, the first of course being the S35. but that's because i like to keep me feet on the ground, but maybe that's just me.