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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

ENG & TV work

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Bruno Solaja

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So I work for a TV station, news mostly.
We are currently shooting on sony dsr400 dv-cams.
Of course,HD is at the door and I would realy like to propose to the company to go the RED "way". I do not like the idea to go for XD cam solution.
The problem is that I do not know is this even possible.
Is it ???

Maybe scarlet will be an option, but what about editing ?

From all that I have read here I know that RED ONE has limited ENG capabilities but what about scarlet or epic options ?

Can it be configured as a ENG camera with the support for B4 lenses ?
I was thinking, that shoulder rig, could be fast enough,flash cards do have enough capacity but on camera rough clip editing,rewiewing,and deleting clips could help to save space and to speed up things when you are out of the house.

Is it even an option ?
 
News with quick turnarounds, probably not the best solution.

You can use B4 lenses but there are tradeoffs. A softer picture being one of them. But I have seen some good results when using a high quality HD lens.

Most likely you will at the very least want 16gb cards. But for ample recording time, the Red Drive or Flash drive when it's available. Handheld rig is a necessity.

Honestly, I would only use this camera for certain news packages that demanded a higher quality look and had enough post production time to put it together. Really, your only limitation is live output and in some cases the 35mm depth of field may not be appropriate. I just don't see using the camera for news for the most part. Scarlet on the other hand, yes that seems to have some potential for news.

Can you give us some more details about exactly what kind of news coverage you would be doing?
 
Red would be a horrible choice for daily news work. Ridiculously heavy compared to other tools available, needs real time and work in post.

And even if somehow you yourself thought it worked fine after trying it, it would be guaranteed that somebody, maybe your boss, afterwards would be wondering why their working harder to use something that's total overkill for the job.

I owned a PDW-F350 for 2 years and it was an EXCELLENT camera. XDCAM, especially the disc based versions are WONDERFUL tools for news if the rest of the organization gets onboard and learns how to use it right. XDCAM has all the features you talk about with editing in camera, deleting clips, etc. Red has none of these and it will be a very long time in the future before it comes, if ever.

I think you'd be doing yourself a favor with dropping the torch for Red for news work.
 
From my EFP & ENG sticky at the top of this forum, in reference to ENG with RED One:

"This is quick turnaround production, where time is of the essence. IMO RED One is of limited use for this market because of the time turnarounds, dependence on legacy investment in tape/disc systems, and the need for some automated functions on the camera (iris). RED One can be a good B-roll camera for this type of production. Stringing creative B-roll for TV stations, especially the ones that are broadcasting HDTV news, is a viable revenue stream for RED One owners. The key thing is to find a medium to deliver the footage to the station/network on that is acceptable to them."

I'd add to that: given enough turnaround time for post, for ENG, specifically news gathering, RED One can be an excellent filmic creative b-roll camera for creative wraps, inbumps, outbumps, etc., but to buy a RED One just for that on limited station budgets doesn't make much sense. For network level ENG b-roll, with their increased budgets, perhaps RED One makes more sense - but still not for quick turnaround programs, but rather for weekly magazine style programs, with their longer turnarounds.

Non-hardlined EFP production is a totally different situation though. RED One has been, is now, and will continue to be used heavily in non-hardlined EFP production - as will Scarlet and Epic.
 
Gibby described it exactly, IMO.

With many advantages of using RED, it is not designed and optimized for fast TV workflows.

cons:

-35mm DOF
-weight
-audio controls
-adjustable parts - shooting speed
-switching ND's - shooting speed
-RAW picture - workflow speed - post
-education of handling and processing the footage for a TV house - really slow process

Editing speed and practicality will be sorted out once all the hardware is updated and debayering is switched over to newer GPUs, but the time it will take for software developers and TV house(s) to adopt it...that is another issue...

The only option I would consider is Scarlet 2/3", but there are still many unanswered questions. Given the time for development and optimization, I don't doubt that RED can grab the significant amount of TV productions, even fast ones - IF that is RED's goal, being a cinema camera company.
 
One note:

The announced 1080p scaled option coming in SCARLET and EPIC (and possibly RED ONE, as noted in the brochure as TBD) may help quite a bit with post workflow and turnaround times.

But I agree with Gibby, that there are probably many better options for this shooting environment at this time and with the budget and schedule you may have in mind.
 
We have the Red and Sony XDCAM, PDW700's. We shot quick turn around with the Sony's and some of the long form doc type work on Red.

As much as I love the Red it is not at present a quick turn ENG camera. But it does have its place.

Ron
 
Thank you all...
I am not new here at reduser and I understand that the RED ONE is not the option for daily news work. Also I have read Gibbys EFP & ENG sticky and I understand and agree with him.

What I had in mind is that RED has Announced new things that covers wide field of work and I am looking for a option to implement that technology into the TV station.

From the day one RED was targeted to cinema market, but now, I think that they have options to build a fast and reliable ENG sistem to work with.

There are so many ENG cameras out there and I would realy like to see RED product compite with them.

Yes, there are many other good cameras out there, but I belive that RED can beat them in all relevant aspects.

Scarlet or Epic are my hope.

We all know what is happening in industry in terms of formats.
From the days of betacams the things are changing constantly.
We have DV,Mini DV,DVcam,Digi betas,DVCpro,HDV....etc.
You can not be shure in what FORMAT to invest...
Now, everybody wants HD. Ok, but for news ???

Options:
How much is investment in XDcam HD ? And what do I realy get ?
Maybe a year ago it was a good option.
HDV ? I do not think so

But what if Scarlet could have features and editing solution for news gathering ?
For a fragment of price we could have RED product in news business.
Also it can make the transition to HD affordable.

It is light,or make it heavy enough to be well balanced on your shoulder
Can take B4 HD lenses
Reliable
Fast booting time and fast rec. start
CF or HDDs for delivery
Fast rewiewing of clips and rough editing+play out
Recording buffer
Fast "in house" editing workflow- Maybe the announced 1080p could be it.
Remote can be used for your assistant to control audio without using a mixer.

Maybe some day...RED codec(compresion algorithm) + wireless network, could make miracles... dreaming now :-))

I somehow belive that RED can make a solution for us.
But I also belive that they do not have time to develop all the things that we would like to have now.

RED has done so much for us all, and I feel somehow bad to ask for more.
But I also feel that there is a very big market in ENG and that RED can, and deserves to be in it.

I think that now they can make the best ENG camera in the world, and make many news shooters happy... and help them not to brake their back so soon :-)
 
Hi bruno
I think the 2/3" Scarlet will be a good bet in the future when it ships. Uses the same ENG lenses we use now, so glass is not an issue. Great format, etc and it is Red.


But for today, if you invest, go XDCAM 4/4/4 which is the best in the market today for high end ENG work. Problem is cost, totaly ready to go with Glass, batteries, covers, media, etc you are looking around $50K range. Which gets you a lot of Red gear. But this setup will let you deliver quality news images to meet any current requirements. Most of the majors have moved to this camera, CNN, BBC, NBC, among others. The SOny PDW700 is fairly light, and holds up well, also the media is nice, re-recordable optical media.

We invested in 4 of the cameras to use over the next several years, but I will be buy a bunch of Scarlet's to replace these with. I can use the same glass, and have a lower cost, and I can then also retire the Sony 355's we also use.

Ron
 
How can I even consider Sony,when I know what is happening here :innocent:

I just hope that RED will consider ENG market.

All we can do is wait...and keep pressing F5 :shifty:
 
Seems like P2 or XDCAM would ideal for ENG or Documentary-style work. HPX500 is a cam I see a lot of stations using in NYC. Only real downside is the up front expense of P2 cards...
 
Well, we tried out the SD XDCAM and P2 cameras,we tried them out on the NORTH POLE ! and they did their job without any problems.
I have tried XDCAM HD 700 a few days ago on the WHC 2009 in Zagreb and I like the camera,despite bad LCD and that it broke my back in 15 min.
Thing is that when I hear the word SONY...well you know.

I would like RED to became a player in ENG field, because I just LOVE their aproach.

I belive that RED can make our work easier and better.
They just do not have the time to fulfill all of our dreams.

In the days when small TV stations,in small countries, produce almost nothing,and web portals are compiting with them,big investments in equipment is not wellcome.
Mostly shooting on DVcams and remembering good old betacams,but that is what we can do today.

Everybody is talking about HD,and on the other side we are shooting DVcam and THAT is expensive.

Scarlet could be the answer for us. We could use it for news and for more demanding productions. Cheaper transition to what we call HD.

Maybe I am wrong,but I have a good feeling about it.

Regards to all
 
Bruno:

everyone pretty much said everything that needed to be said. i just want to reiterate: You would be crazy to use the RED for tv news, as it stands now, and in the near foreseeable future. and even if and when the scarlets come out, and they work well, you are still dealing with those pesky cards, which, to my mind, is the reason p2 hasn't really taken off and the xdcam HD format seems poised to be the new betacam, at least in the news world. documentary? sure, magazine style? maybe, but day to day news? i say no.

xdcamHD is the new betacamSP. you read it here first, folks (ok, you might have heard that before, but i wrote it in reduser first) and i don't even have one xd camera yet, i am waiting for the PDW800. xdcamHD format really makes sense for news to me. the red1 would just kill your back, and that is just with a slow 5x zoom lens, never mind a fast 21x.
 
Scarlet 2/3" could be fine in terms of workflow considering it will record 1080p 10bit RGB which (if I understand correctly) Avid Media Composer and Newscutter understand natively (depending on the file extension of course). So if you're on Avid the workflow will be real simple with no transcode in, just possibly a re-wrap if it is saved as a .mov but we'll have to wait and see on that one.

You'd be using a red drive if you are using the 2/3" Cinema version (interchangeable lenses), so no worries about CF cards.

Final Cut only understands 8-bit RGB at the mo (I've gleaned this from Reduser so please correct me if I'm wrong) so may not be suitable in that case, and I'm sure pretty sure a .R3D conform would not fit into the tight turnaround for daily news.

What you should really be considering is whether Scarlet 2/3" Cinema will be suitable for run and gun what with all the add ons you would need. Scarlet 2/3" Fixed may be a better option but that all depends on the lens and how big CF cards are or you might be doing a lot of hot swapping.

This is a wait and see IMHO

Stefan
 
Thank you Lennywood for your reply.
But I was hoping that SCARLET could be the camera for news.
RED 1 is not an option.
Xdcam is a very good camera, but...
I belive that RED can do better.

And Stefan
Yes,it is wait and see
 
Scarlet and Epic would be even greater, if Red can do Hardlined ENG.

DSMC would be Cinema/EFP, Photography, Broadcasting/ENG, Stereo/HDR capable camera! :emote_happyhappy:
 
I think Scarlet 2/3" could make a viable ENG HD camera depending on how the ff1080p option is realized. Except for needing a more extended zoom range, the fixed lens version could work very well at a modest price.
The cinema interchangeable version could work well if the camera ops can learn on the fly manual exposure skills. Auto iris functions will likely not be supported on B4 ENG lenses. Manual exposure with a properly calibrated viewfinder, zebras, and histograms can be pretty easy with practice, I mostly used manual exposure when shooting news for one of the local stations, but it will slow you down in some situations.
 
Out of the more conventional offerings with XDcam and DVpro100 the Panasonic codec is probably more accesable than the Sony option for quick post turnaround. There are various camera options from both vendors. I don't think Red is best for this application, the post above sum up the situation well.
 
David Rasberry said:
Except for needing a more extended zoom range, the fixed lens version could work very well at a modest price.
Click to expand...

RED just may have a cool solution for that :-)

Everything is subject to change, but RED Team has said that they intended to make a 2x converter and also a wide angle converter (full zoom through) for use on the front of the fixed lens Scarlet. If they make those my guess is they will be very good glass (like the fixed lens itself), and engineered to dance very well with the fixed lens.

The addition of those two quickly addable/removable adaptors to a fixed lens Scarlet kit, in tandem with the camera's ability to also shoot RGB (if that stays in the specifications), could seriously expand the usage of the camera for short turnaround field production, "run n' gun, guerilla shooting, and documentaries of various kinds.

Though my fixed lens Scarlets will be at the bottom of my camera pecking order, below my Epics and FF35 Scarlets, if RGB/raw switchability, and the 2x and WA adaptor stay in the available features of the camera, I think it will be my "go everywhere with me" camera, with the higher models of Scarlet and my Epics reserved for higher end production value projects.

The future is looking way interesting for sure...like you, I can't wait until the specs and accessory options for the Scarlet models are finalized :-)
 
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