Is RED too Intimidating?

[Ben DiAnna]

Today I was visiting an old high school film teacher. He's getting the funding for all types of new video equipment that I never got to use when I was in his class so it was kind of exciting to see. I was giving him email updates whenever Jim announced something to encourage him to keep it in mind for when the time comes. I thought he was interested in it until I talked to him to day and he was giving me responses about how he thinks its too much for what the class needs (as in, it's too advanced, too complicated, too much trouble).

He's never worked with advanced cameras, and he just purchased 6 Canon VIXIA's cause he wants to move to using hard drives to film instead of DV tapes. It troubled me that he wasn't very interested in the Scarlet fixed lens since that would be perfect for his class. The room is filled with nice G5's and the latest Final Cut Pro along with a plethora of filming equipment and a studio. What' the problem here?
It got me thinking. Scarlet fixed lens should appeal to a very large market, but when it's grouped with all these advanced very expensive camera's, a crap load of super cool looking accessories, etc, it might seem a little too intimidating to someone like my teacher; people might get the wrong idea that only pro's can use this stuff.

I'm just wondering how RED will advertise their camera's closer to the release date? The Fixed lens scarlet, i think, should kind of be separated from the other camera's in some way. I'm not worried that the scarlet's will sell bad, I'm just thinking that if the fixed lens was advertised in a different way that it won't scare away some people who will miss out on a great camera. I would love to see me old high school film class benefit from a real world tool like the scarlet that they can really learn something from if they decided to continue in this business.
Any comments or opinions on this? Should RED make something that will give a less intimidating feel to some of their products?

-Ben

 

[David Mullen ASC]

The camera is a year away from being available, so I don't see why the teacher would be considering it yet. But when it comes out, I'm sure plenty of people will be interested.

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

I noticed that your class also has g5s? Red is intel only so I can imagine it's not in ones interest to buy a camera if the footage won't work on the computers.

Besides the reality is you should be focusing on learning to tell a good story until you have learned that don't even bother thinking about cameras.

 

[Jerrod Cordell]

Well you also have to take into account the cost of each camera. Would you really trust a $3000 to $4000 camera in the hands of some retarded teenagers with no respect for expensive equipment? If it were a college, I could understand, but not high school.

 

[Peter Hodgins]

I'm not worried that the scarlet's will sell bad, I'm just thinking that if the fixed lens was advertised in a different way that it won't scare away some people who will miss out on a great camera.

All that's necessary is for the Scarlet to be used on some award winning Indie ... then it will be "The Man".

 

[Brad Webb]

All that's necessary is for the Scarlet to be used on some award winning Indie ... then it will be "The Man".

Which won't take very long. Someone with limited resources and a lot of talent is going to make something amazing with this camera right out of the gate. With any luck it will be me.

 

[JosephPDonaldson]

Correct me if I am wrong, I am new to RED as well, but I would think yes it is too advanced for that situation. I do not know all the ins and outs to the RED work flow. I definitely do not want to give that impression, but from what I have already read I do believe for a handful of high school kids it is a bit much.

I am not saying a teenager could not handle a RED but think back to high school...With all that goes into working with RED cameras I doubt 45 min a day 5 days if that a week would be enough time to get a grasp on any of it. It would take have a semester just to get everyone on the same level of color correcting, transcoding, so on and so forth...

Like I said I am new to all of this so PLEASE correct me if I am wrong, but this was just my two cents.

 

[Ben DiAnna]

I think you guys are missing the point.

The camera is a year away from being available, so I don't see why the teacher would be considering it yet. But when it comes out, I'm sure plenty of people will be interested.

I know the camera is a year away. I wasn't suggesting that he should buy the camera right this minute. I was more interested in his impression of RED and the potential of a future camera. But I guess once things are more out in the open people's perceptions may change.

Well you also have to take into account the cost of each camera. Would you really trust a $3000 to $4000 camera in the hands of some retarded teenagers with no respect for expensive equipment? If it were a college, I could understand, but not high school.

So every high school student has no respect for anything? High schools should be held back from this technology? Other public high schools in my area spend a HELL of a lot more for their film program then my old HS does; as in multiple $6000+ cameras. I think your being extremely narrow minded. I'll tell you one thing, if a camera like this existed in my high school class it would have been a dream come true. This is the basic model Scarlet, not an Epic. He's already purchased a camera that was $4000 and its in perfect condition. Is it too advanced for a 17 and 18 year old age group? There are beginners in the class that use less expensive cameras, and advanced students who are allowed to rent out advanced equipment. That's his system. Plus there's a contract that if they break it they buy it. Does that make you feel better? :usd:

I noticed that your class also has g5s? Red is intel only so I can imagine it's not in ones interest to buy a camera if the footage won't work on the computers.
Besides the reality is you should be focusing on learning to tell a good story until you have learned that don't even bother thinking about cameras.

Actually for some reason I remember those computer's being Intel based, but I could be wrong. Good point, I overlooked that fact.

Yes story comes first (say that to Hollywoodh34r: ) but they're in high school. And it's a General Film class not a story writing class, not everyone who takes it will be writing stories, there might be students who are more interested in the camera aspect (as i was, but was very limited). Be calm, they won't have the budget or enough skill and resources to make big indi film. But I'd like to add, when you have more tools at hand to make your true vision come to life you can write and even better story without restraints. I just want to see future students get the best thing available and benefit from it, that's all.

It seems everyone here is against RED being part of an educational program or something! Maybe it's just to early for this type of thread. I seems everyone who has a question here is greeted with the "its a year away" response. I'll just stay silent and see how things roll out. :calm:

 

[Ben DiAnna]

I am not saying a teenager could not handle a RED but think back to high school...With all that goes into working with RED cameras I doubt 45 min a day 5 days if that a week would be enough time to get a grasp on any of it. It would take have a semester just to get everyone on the same level of color correcting, transcoding, so on and so forth...

Like I said I am new to all of this so PLEASE correct me if I am wrong, but this was just my two cents.

I just kind of mentioned it in my last post, but my teacher reserves more advanced equipment to advanced students. Second semester+ students who know what their doing and know the ropes. And freshman and sophomores aren't even able to take the class period.
How much difference is there between an 18 year old HS student and an 18 1/2 year old college student? or even 19 year old.

On another note, the students have to learn how to use Final Cut in one semester. Are they going to learn all there is to know about it? of course not, but they can learn enough to put a small video together and become exposed to it. I think that is what's important. A student that was in that class with me went on to make a large indi film with a modest budget that won some awards. That was straight out of high school. I think people underestimate what younger people are capable of when they are given the opportunity to excel.

 

[Craig A. Macon]

I think the RED workflow is too advanced for High School students if you are talking about them actually using the r3d files. However, if they were using them for capture then generating HD Quicktimes, I think students could deal with just importing and editing without all the headaches of XML conversions and whatnot.

It's a matter of keeping in mind what is the purpose of the class. Does the school have a 4K projector? Or even an HD system in the school for viewing? Is this live production? Would the video projects be for playback for a live production? If this program is anything like the ones I have heard about then they don't necessarily have a use for r3d or the post pains that go along with it.

Just my opinion.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Honestly they should go with HMC-150's (link)

They have pro-sumer controls allowing very good manual control, phenomenal compared to consumer cameras. The lens is a 28mm 368mm (35mm equivalent)!

It has a very light codec but the images are wonderful. It shoots 1080/24fps at either 21 Mpbs, 17 Mpbs, 13 Mpbs. It also does 1080/60i, 1080/30p, and 720/60p, 720/30p, 720/24p. The image is sure to get the kids far more exited than the consumer camera he is considering...

It keys surprisingly well!

FAR more control and full AUTO modes.

It performs wonderfully in low light, it shoots onto SD cards!!

I think it is absolutely perfect for classes... and only $3,200.- each.

Of course you could just get DVX-100's for a bit less, but for light HD flavors that look phenomenal the HMC has to be the undisputed king.

 

[J. Eric Camp]

I tend to agree. I think that RED is even wrong for some colleges right now. It's still a moving target. I do feel that you should prep them if you will in highschool. Get on a P2 or SXS workflow so they get comfortable with that.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

The HMC gives you the same workflow as P2 or SXS but a 16GB cards go for about $40 instead of $800, plus you get hours instead of minutes. That is also one of the reasons I recommended it. And it seems they are looking for something inexpensive if they were looking at the consumer cameras. The G5's should cut 21Mbps 1080p easily. I don't know if there is a compatibility issue but I doubt it if they are using Final Cut.

If you look around a bit you'll find tons of videos: http://www.vimeo.com/2384547

 

[Birns and Sawyer]

I agree with Roberto, the 150 is a great camera for that range/price, with an easy workflow and great quality/controls on the camera.

Not that Scarlet won't be a great camera, it's just that if you're student trying to shoot/edit a project in a few weeks timespan, it's nice to sometimes just use the 3-way color corrector in FCP than to go through a whole conform.

 

[Ben DiAnna]

Interesting reply's, thanks guys. My original view was the work flow would be easy enough for a high school to use, but from what I'm hearing now, it isn't.
I hate to bring up the "soccer mom" phrase again, but Jim did say that. I mean, if they expect maybe just an enthusiast to buy a fixed scarlet and be able to use it, whats to stop a high school? I've never used the red one so I'm completely out of the loop, I can't argue if its hard or if it's easy. I'll take your guy's word for it right now, but I'm staying skeptical. I kind of agree that it's more than what the class needs, but that's why I like the idea of it.

It's hard to believe that RED would make a camera like this but make the work flow and footage so difficult to work with that only professionals are able to use it. In that price range the camera should appeal to consumer and prosumer. I think RED may have something up their sleeve to make things easier...maybe.

Also has red said anything about whether the work flow on the scarlet and the red one will be the same or not? Just a thought...

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Well, there's more complexity to the marketplace for digital cameras and workflows than just "professionals" and "high school students"... I don't think RED is limited to only professionals... but I don't think the workflow is necessarily well-suited to a high school video production class, or even if that level of quality is necessary anyway -- we're talking about something that just needs to be a learning tool after all, not a high-end piece of equipment.

But we should just wait and see what the basic 2/3" fixed-lens Scarlet is like and what workflows will be released for it. I suspect that any camera meant to be sold in large volumes like that will also be coupled with easy-to-use post software to handle the footage. So maybe it will be suitable for a high school class after all.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I find a fully manual camera considerably EASIER to operate than a video camera.

I love my Canon F1.

It has shutter speed.

It has ISO for the meter.

It has a crank for advancing film.

That's it.

Lenses have focus and aperture.

That's what you want a student to learn on. Teaching a kid "knee" "toe" "whitebalance" and a bazillion other arbitrary menu settings is far more overwhelming.

Teach the students optics not menus. The RED from that perspective is a simpler camera. You put a lens on it. You attach a storage device. You hit record.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

I still believe that being able to tell your students you have an "HD" camera is a big plus... it is a major buzz word, as well as 1080p... that is what they hear and likely all they know.

With the HMC they can flip the auto switch and off they go, or flip it back and they have iris, focus, gain, shutter... they can use degrees or fractions with the Video Camera mode and the Film Camera modes... the advantages for a High School class seem endless...

They can shoot, pop the cards into the reader and simply cut and paste. Done... they are ready to cut 1080, they may be able to cut at real speed off the internal drives already in the G5's and worst case scenario for a hundred bucks or so they could single 7200 rpm drives of this new and faster generation with a firewire port, plug and play. Just set it next to the computer, plug it in, and show them to cut and paste to the new hard drive icon next to the computer's original drive icon. That's an insignificant investment at best, the hump to get over,and get approved by the board would be the cameras themselves... but if he was even considering a Scarlet at $2,500 he can't be too far off...

I haven't checked, but I think Final Cut can ingest the HMC's clips right into the timeline... it might however need to be the latest version in which case he'd also have to consider the cost of the update. But if so it would be a dream workflow.

Shoot > Pop the Card in > Copy and Paste > Drop the files right into the timeline

Presto...


Let me add that I hate kids, and I am sure every generation feels the same way when we realize how awesome their toys (and tools) are in comparison to our sticks and stones. I really hope the school can afford the investment... it would really suck if they end up with a consumer camera as opposed to a Prosumer camera...

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

I am trying to find a video that would be better to sell the camera to the board, though I am sure the skating video would get the kids exited.

I was looking for something that would be good to show to a school board but I am sure he would pick something more suitable himself. Hopefully a nice Quicktime and not something off Vimeo... I'd go to DVXuser and look in their HMC footage section: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/forumdisplay.php?f=149

I did however bump into a candle light/low light test with the gain up which goes to show how well this sucker will perform with available light: http://www.vimeo.com/1854379

Also found a green screen test which goes to show that while super light and easy to cut, this codec would also hold up very well for this sort of thing, which I am sure would be a great project or tool to make available to the kids for little or no cost, just some paint and a wall, hopefully good lighting of course, but fun and something that would open up the possibilities for them, I am thinking pre-recorded segments for the morning announcements, which I operated camera for in my school: http://www.vimeo.com/1981122

Ok, back to my screenplay lol... I got a bit carried away, just wanted to help. This thread brought back some real nice memories.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Ben,

I deal with Red workflow all of the time. Right now, in its current state it can be challenging even for the professionals. There are hardware requirements (Newest computers, fast drives, proper displays, etc) and of course the knowledge of how to get a good image from the RAW. I suppose it's not impossible for a camera like Red to be used in a High School setting, but I think it might be more trouble than it's worth. Scarlet MAY change that. 1080P record mode would certainly make life a bit easier for the workflow. But, as others mentioned, this camera is still in very early stages and with the economy who knows when it will actually roll out.

I think the suggestion to use P2 and HDV cameras is the wisest. It makes sense all around. It lets the school use existing equipment and the media is more manageable in terms of file sizes. And due to the nature of classroom settings where machines and perhaps hard drives are shared, having tape backups doesn't hurt. In that regard, HDV is a winner.

But I understand your excitement about Red, and I would be feeling the same way if I were in high school and these cameras could somehow be implemented into the curriculum. Heck, my school didn't even have a video department. I had to do an internship just to get some exposure to video production. The thought of having a Red back then is mind boggling.