Easy interchangeable mount for Epic?

[Matthew Rogers]

Hey guys, I know that the Epic is supposed to have an interchangeable mount, but I am wondering about how easy/quick it is going to be to change? I really want to encourage RED to make a mount that is very easy to change (one tool with one screw) that can be swapped in a few seconds. The current swap from PL to Nikon is a pain in the butt as far as I am concerned and should be better designed for the Epic.

Matthew

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Looks like it's 4 bolts and a simple swap. I guess we'll have to see what really happens when they have more than just renders to show.

 

[Matthew Rogers]

Yeah, we'll have to see. Although, it would be nice to have something like a PL mount that the different mounts go into. Except, that there would be something you have to engage before you can twist the mount off.

Matthew

 

[Jannard]

Four bolts in one minute... stable, secure and fast. One bolt would not be secure.

Jim

 

[Manolo S. Navazo]

dear mr. jannard,

4 bolts are for sure stable, but we also have seen solutions like p+s-technik which are for sure even faster to change different lens mounts and i think they are as stable as a 4 bolt solution.

time is money, greetings manolo

Four bolts in one minute... stable, secure and fast. One bolt would not be secure.

Jim

 

[Douglas Underdahl]

Hey Jim how about something like Dzus fasteners here, like used on race cars, 1/2 turn off or on? I think that actual Dzus fasteners would be too big, but maybe there is something similar from aerospace or racing, etc.

The IMS is cool, but it does add another lens mount, or adapter, between the lens and body, which can introduce problems. I've know a bunch of shooters who had footage ruined by adapter problems (film shoots) and would never use one again.

 

[Jannard]

Extremely tight tolerances and rigidity need to be held. Dzus won't cut it. Stacking mounts eliminates many back focal length options. For example, a C-mount is 17mm (or thereabouts... can't exactly remember off the top of my head). How do you fit a universal mount inside of that distance?

We are pretty happy with this system. It is simple, easy and stable.

Jim

 

[Matthew Rogers]

Four bolts in one minute... stable, secure and fast. One bolt would not be secure.

No, what I meant was something like a PL mount that had a bolt on it. When you tighten it to the correct point, the bolt slides through an aligning hole. That way you just take the one bolt out, twist and bang, your done. Heck, the bolt could even be a pin on a spring. Of course, you know more about the tolerances and what a system like mine might not be able to do.

It just would be nice to swap mounts almost as easy as swapping a PL mount lens.

Matthew

 

[Manolo S. Navazo]

a C-mount is 17mm (or thereabouts... can't exactly remember off the top of my head). How do you fit a universal mount inside of that distance?

mr. jannard,

could it be that you mean this 4 bolt system like on the c-mount from the IMS http://www.pstechnik.de/en/images/22605_IMS-C-Mount.jpg
http://www.pstechnik.de/en/optics-ims-mounts.php ;-)

the other mounts look like a fast hot swap system

does any just reported problems with the IMS mount system? i don't know, i just like to know it.

greetz

 

[Manolo S. Navazo]

since RED says it would be a modification to work with the IMS and the warranty is going away,.... i hope that RED will copy the idea of the IMS(for epic), because it seems to me faster to change different lenses and you don't will have the hustle to align correctly the backfocus on the field.

i had never the IMS on my fingers, so correct me if i am wrong with the understanding of this mount.

greetz

 

[Douglas Underdahl]

Something LIKE Dzus - that is, a quick release device.

So imagine instead four screws, four studs. They remain on the brain, permanently. You turn them 90 degrees counterclockwise until they click, with a tool, and remove the lens mount. Reverse to install the mount. The studs have small cams that lock the mount in place by friction, as in the PL mount.

This way, no chance of losing a screw, cross threading, etc. Should take about ten seconds to change the mount, and no problems with stacking of mounts making C mount impossible, though Eclair did it with the ACL.

 

[chuck colburn]

Something LIKE Dzus - that is, a quick release device.

So imagine instead four screws, four studs. They remain on the brain, permanently. You turn them 90 degrees counterclockwise until they click, with a tool, and remove the lens mount. Reverse to install the mount. The studs have small cams that lock the mount in place by friction, as in the PL mount.

This way, no chance of losing a screw, cross threading, etc. Should take about ten seconds to change the mount, and no problems with stacking of mounts making C mount impossible, though Eclair did it with the ACL.

Sounds good to me Douglas. As you sau Eclair did on the ACL although that was a threaded ring configuration at least it was made out of steel and I believe brass.

 

[Jannard]

The only reason the warranty is void with the P+S mount is the inability to properly deal with the wiring on the RED ONE. Scarlet and Epic is much easier. I expect that there will be a big aftermarket of lens mounts for these new models. Take your good ideas and start a business with them. We'll support it.

Jim

 

[Manolo S. Navazo]

The only reason the warranty is void with the P+S mount is the inability to properly deal with the wiring on the RED ONE. Scarlet and Epic is much easier. I expect that there will be a big aftermarket of lens mounts for these new models. Take your good ideas and start a business with them. We'll support it.

Jim

thats nice to hear, thank you

 

[Jared Caldwell]

Awesome. Thanks, Jim. :}

 

[Michael Panfeld]

The only reason the warranty is void with the P+S mount is the inability to properly deal with the wiring on the RED ONE. Scarlet and Epic is much easier. I expect that there will be a big aftermarket of lens mounts for these new models. Take your good ideas and start a business with them. We'll support it.

Jim

So three questions: First, the marketing materials say Scarlet/Epic will support the Canon mount. But unlike Nikon, there are two different mounts: FD and the newer EOS mounts. Which one are you referring to (or will it be both)? People have huge investments in glass and your words can sway the used lens markets.

Second, what about OCT19 and BNCR mounts? Do you plan on making them?

Third, will the mounts have backfocus adjustment? Or will the all lenses have to be collimated to spec in order for them to be used?
Thanks

 

[JonathanF]

I don't know what all the noise is about fast mount changing, but I've been making features for more than a decade and I can't imagine why anyone would need fast interchange on mounts (or mess with them in the field when shooting) that's not specing their lens package using some dizzying array of lenses that aren't matched, etc. (that's madness in my book).

Personally (and your mileage may vary), I can't think of a single good excuse to switch mounts in the middle of a paid shoot when there are so many choices of lenses you can rent or buy that all use the same mount.

When I'm shooting I want my camera and lens package both checked AND matched to make sure one isn't out of whack (SOP at _any_ reputable rental house), and then for any job above a low budget commercial, the body goes on the bench to check the mount as well. That's just part of being a professional and being able to offer your clients that extra level of certainty that comes with hiring a professional. Generally if shooting int he EU or US I'll have my body checked every time I rent lenses because it's only $40 or $50 for the service and the peace of mind is worth it.

It also helps when you need to cover your ass later if something does go sideways.

Anyone that's shot with Master Primes or PV Primos (and knows what the hell they're doing) is going to know this. Cinema cameras are very precise instruments and changing a lens mount is not a trivial operation, that's why Chrosziel collimator's cost $40 grand. Focus tollerances for cinema cameras start at about .0005". When you start blowing images up to 80 feet across you'll know why. The Arri Master Primes are so sensitive to this that they require[SIZE=-1] a 150,000 Euro off-axis MTF measuring system to service.[/SIZE] So if you think you're just going to whip the mount off and slap your nikon FD lenses on for one take and then go back to those beautiful MP's for the following setup, you've lost your mind.

I really think that people need to think this through a little more carefully before we all start begging for features that are going to compromise the design of the camera.

I'd also suggest people get a better grasp of why most cameras DON'T offer field interchangable mounts (and why they are usually aftermaket solutions aimed at amateurs and students).

Yes, there are some interchangable mounts out there that are of stunning quality, but I'm still getting them checked if it's ever exchanged on any camera I am using.

On that note I'm sure Jim and the engineers will put fitment and thermal stability in front of interchangeability, but PLEASE put strength and stability above all other considerations. The new cameras will have both better resolution AND require more precision at these higher resolutions, and after the experience many have had with the R1 mount (using high speed Cine glass) I would appreciate this not being a step backwards in the reliability of the design. Consider shooting from high vibration platforms like helicopters or vehicles.

I personally would like to see a bolt on solution with specific torque specifications (documented please); and if we're bolting into aluminium I'd like to see the bolt holes in the aluminium side of the body pre-helicoiled at the factory.

Having had some peripheral exposure to Grand prix engine building many years back I learned that anyone making magnesium or aluminium engine components that required frequent removal or re-torquing of fasteners ALWAYS helicoiled them right from the start. This improved the life of the threads and reduced the possibility of thread damage when over torquing.

Personally, I'll be upgrading to the rebently promised steel mounts and hopefully there will be a shimmed mount offered in place of the adjustable one on the R1.

J

 

[Jannard]

J... while I won't be doing what you are doing, you certainly have the option to do exactly as you described.

Jim

 

[JonathanF]

J... while I won't be doing what you are doing, you certainly have the option to do exactly as you described.

Not sure I get you Jim.

BTW - thanks to Brent & Stewart on their willingness to get some updates into the docs on the audio. Top notch response once we got that thread posted.

Cheers,

J

 

[J. Eric Camp]

If people want a third party to make a new ims like system for speed changing the mount then be all means. I for one am VERY grateful that I will not be trusting the weight of a 24 pound lens to "one screw and a spring."

Or something with such precise needs as my FFD.

Hell I even worry about just 4 screws some times, but then remember my trust in RED.