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Mechanical Shutter

P

Paulo Emílio

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Hi everyone. A few weeks ago i saw, here in Brazil, a short series from Globo TV made with ARRI-D21, "Maysa". Beautiful images, rich colors and real film sensation. I was informed about the D21 has a mechanical shutter system. That is my question: What is the real difference between an electronic shutter system and a mechanical? This mechanical shutter could give the organic "filmic" sensation for the digital cinema more than the electronic. Maybe the next Red Cameras generation could be incorporated a mechanical shutter and more color resolution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF7jNqKmw_A

http://abcine.org.br/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=215&Itemid=111
 
The main advantage of the mechanical shutter is the optical viewfinder for the operator; otherwise, while I think it does have different look than electronic shutter create, I don't think it is significant enough to lose sleep over.

Plus you lose the ability to open up the shutter beyond the equivalent of 180 degrees when faced with an extremely low-light situation.

A mechanical shutter would solve certain problems with a rolling shutter though, but as I said, I wouldn't want to give up the range of shutter speeds that an electronic shutter allows. An optical viewfinder is nice though!
 
But just to be clear, you can disable the D-21 shutter in the "open" position and achieve greater than 180 degree operation, albeit while forcing the operator to go back to using a monitor to operate.
Cheers,
Harry
 
I wouldn't want to give up the range of shutter speeds that an electronic shutter allows.
Click to expand...

Agreed 100%.

Also electronic is less moving parts to break.

Also the Lenses like the Rouge are great, I want to continue using these lower price lenses.

Tek
 
Jim says Red has addressed this with a faster read-reset time on the CMOS. Should be much closer to film. This should address skew issues and give us a bit more pleasant image.
 
I love my RED ONE. I've never had such powerful camera. But comparing Red and film, in my opinion, film has more color. I don't know what kind of color it is, if is color space or colour depth or what else, but something is missing here. Maybe it's just my color grading. "You want more colour depth??.. " Yes. I do prefer it more than resolution.
 
Paulo, can you give us an idea of exactly how you are processing your footage. Which apps are you using? Which color space, gamma space? I've seen some pretty nice color come from Red. Certainly there is room for improvement and I think we'll see it in the new sensors as well as in the debayering on the software side. But I am curious exactly how your processing because something may jump out at us which would allow us to help you get where you want to be with your Red.
 
Skew is still existent in a mechanical shutter,it is just different. The addition of a mechanical shutter would add alot of weight and cost to the system. I have gone back and forth in my feelings over this and personally have landed at wanting a EVF.
 
film has more color
Click to expand...

pufwaargbl...

you compared them side by side?
after Redcine?
And you can tell one has over 16 million and another one has more? in motion?
I can't at all.
If I could spot any difference in a super controlled test... well, what?
Why should film be a sacred reference? WE are all much more used to crappy TV than theatre projection, so we are already far beyond the color information that we are used to see in visual reproduction of reality.

Reality has more colors then film. So what?
Can a 12 bit system reproduce real world clearly and beautifully? Of course it does.
That's it.

Than in movies nowadays they crash colors and make movies all look the same, almost monocromatic, or greenish, or blueish.
I think Red One is too good for many filmakers. It's wasted. Scientists would certainly make better use of it.
If you are a scientist, you may wait a little longer if you want.
I have yet to see a movie really needing to show more colors than 16 millions.
 
no mechanical shutter prevents Syncro-Lasers

no mechanical shutter prevents Syncro-Lasers

For table-top work [on film] we have used the Syncro-Lasers from CE.
These are high-powered laser pointers that 'strobe' on & off with the shutter of the film camera, they mount on c-stands and can be placed anywhere just off frame. When the camera is exposing a frame of film, they are off, when the mechanical shutter spins into the gate to darken the filmplane for the advancement of the film to the next frame, as well as for the mirror shutter to bounce the frame image thru the viewfinder, the lasers are momentarily on.
By aiming these lasers at a specific target, like the place on a table where the actor must sit an object down, or by targeting 2 lasers to a point in the air where the actor must bring an object [like a product] to a specific point in the air, the actor can see his/her marks yet the camera [the film] does not.
These work GREAT! A godsend for critical table-top.
Yet, I must not use these with the RED :-(
I suppose the Arri D-20/D-21 can use these since the mechanical shutter would momentarily block the image 100%, just long enough for the lasers to fire...
I wonder if a CMOS chip/rolling shutter chip may someday work like this?
 
Tetsuo said:
pufwaargbl...

you compared them side by side?
after Redcine?
And you can tell one has over 16 million and another one has more? in motion?
I can't at all.
If I could spot any difference in a super controlled test... well, what?
Why should film be a sacred reference? WE are all much more used to crappy TV than theatre projection, so we are already far beyond the color information that we are used to see in visual reproduction of reality.

Reality has more colors then film. So what?
Can a 12 bit system reproduce real world clearly and beautifully? Of course it does.
That's it.

Than in movies nowadays they crash colors and make movies all look the same, almost monocromatic, or greenish, or blueish.
I think Red One is too good for many filmakers. It's wasted. Scientists would certainly make better use of it.
If you are a scientist, you may wait a little longer if you want.
I have yet to see a movie really needing to show more colors than 16 millions.
Click to expand...

You may be right in what you say here, but at some point you have to forget about specs and measurements. It boils down to this: I have yet to see a movie shot digitally that can even come close to rivalling the rich color of well shot, chemically colored film. I'm looking forward to it, but I haven't seen it yet.

That said, most things shot on film today, as you mentioned, usually don't look much better.

Anyway, not sure if I've seen a movie that needs to use more than 16 million colors, but when you're dealing with non-DI'd film, that's kind of a meaningless measurement. There may well be infinite colors in such a film print, the only limit is precision of measurement between what call color A and color B (and of course, our own eyes ability to differentiate).

EDIT: Apologies... Don't want this to turn into another film vs. digital debate. Didn't think about that before posting this.
 
I think its 2 diferent languages... and to me the RED colors and depth are superb!!
Im working on Scratch cine some times and most of all in FCP/Crimson/Color.
I will post some of our stuff here in Brazil...
 
I'm new to this camera but have become aware at what it does well and what it doesn't do. Its compression scheme is genius considering how much they're stuffing into such a thin pipe. But I still feel its color space gets stretched thin (and looks it). Considering broadcast deliverables are never beyond 2k, virtually all DI's are at 2k and perceptual resolution isn't beyond that, I'd gladly sacrifice my ability to zoom in for deeper color, less noise and higher ASA at 2k (super 35).

Back on topic. I've no real issues with RED's CMOS. No distracting motion artifacts as of yet. Have they've taken care of the split exposure strobe effect or is it still an issue? If it is than that's one of the advantages of CCD or mechanical shutter over CMOS. I'd like to know what people's experiences are with the current build and gun or photography flashes. On some CMOS cameras they look real wierd (EX1) and IMO unuseable. So if you're shooting alot of flashes, explosions, etc. you may want to research this.
 
Could the Arri mechanical shutter be simulated with a sufficiently sized LCD positioned between the lens and image sensor ? The clear and opaque (black) phases of the LCD would be programable and synced with CMOS rolling shutter, and there would be no moving parts. Maybe more of a global shutter look. Just a thought...
 
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