I'm curious. . . who here on RED User is certain they will be buying an Epic X?

[Pawel Achtel]

I'll get one.

 

[Michael Hastings]

I'm definitely getting Epic-X. I caution everyone else and suggest that they wait for monstro.

Ian, such a short post I can't tell if you are (humorously?) suggesting that everyone else hold off on epic-x so you (and I), as early serial numbers, can make back our investment with rentals? If so, I agree - I will upgrade to epic-x and hope everybody else keeps their REDONEs for another six months.:biggrin:

It was very nice that rentals in the early days paid for a large part of my REDONE.

Seriously, it seems to me the smartest play for most is to take the Epic-X deal and then look at the Monstro FF scarlet whenever the monstro becomes available. That way you have two bodies - the Scarlet/Monstro becomes the standard speed camera for high dynamic range/6k res and the epic-x becomes the high speed camera with only slightly lower image quality. And the two bodies back each other up in case of any failure. And maybe adding minimal accessories, you have a second camera.

The investment is about the same (remember if you trade in on epic it is only $5K more but you need to buy the accessories so probably pretty close.

I would be interested to hear opinions against my theory so I can clarify my thinking.

I would also be very interested to have RED consider offering a special package deal for this combo - for example if when we order our epic-x we ordered a scarlet FF35 with a non refundable deposit (maybe $1k ?) we could get say a couple thousand dollar discount or accessory credit. I think that would nail down a lot of additional scarlet ff35 sales, making it easier to gauge initial demand and provide manufacturing savings that would offset the discount.

How about it Jim?

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

It was very nice that rentals in the early days paid for a large part of my REDONE.

Yes, but that was a brand new camera technology at a price point that was unheard of in combination with YEAAAARS of anticipation and promise.

I highly doubt that the average client (Unless you have high-end clientele) would be willing to pay much more than they would for a current RED One (Which is currently raking in leaves instead of gold nuggets like it did in October of '07 on the rental market).

Plus.... If you're using S35 glass on a S35 sensor such as the Epic X, fine, but if you're using it on a FF35 sensor you've now got a crop factor playing in. Also, the data rate, resolution and DR will vary with both cameras thus affecting your footage in the same manner.

I still think the smartest train of thought is to go with the FF Scarlet, then FF Epic, thus allowing for a wider target rental market and price points to offer to clients. And of course, no work-arounds when changing glass.

That's my opinion.

Personally, I'm going to upgrade my R1 with the new sensor vs. swapping the whole body....Wait for Scarlet FF35 and add a 645 once that's available.

 

[JanneJansson]

With my current budget, I'll be lucky to get a T-shirt of the Epic-X... anyone need dirt cheep camera guy? Located: Waaaaay to north in scandinavia.

 

[David Collard]

Trade-in issues

Trade-in issues

I don't think it's fair to expect Red to indefinitely take your R1 in for a trade-in. There should be a timeframe once new products are released. We are indebted to Jim's company, not the other way around.

 

[I Bloom]

Ian, such a short post I can't tell if you are (humorously?) suggesting that everyone else hold off on epic-x so you (and I), as early serial numbers, can make back our investment with rentals? If so, I agree - I will upgrade to epic-x and hope everybody else keeps their REDONEs for another six months.:biggrin:

Sarcasm doesn't translate well to text.

I have faith in Jim's ability to sell me stuff. When monstro becomes available I know he'll make me another deal I can't pass up.
I think the notion of the red rental market imploding under it's own success is chicken little, but all the same I'm excited about more expensive cameras coming online.

Just testing some new crimson stuff on some red footage I shot today and I have to say I am consistently astonished by Red One footage. And I've been shooting on Red since 07 and it still blows my mind every time I get it fully debayered and into color correction. Pulling detail out of unfiltered windows today, thinking this is amazing dynamic range. Now the idea of a camera like this shooting 5K at 100fps is just insane.

But really. Everybody. Except me. Monstro is going to be worth the wait guys. Be cautious and don't take unnecessary risks in life. It's too short.

IBloom

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Monstro FF35 for me...

Actually, my current upgrade plan looks like this:

Buy fixed lens scarlet, Buy Scarlet FF35, Trade RED One in on EPIC 645. Of course, that may change. I had a different outlook on it two weeks ago. Epic-X is only appealing to me because it's a new toy that will be the first of the EPIC cameras to ship and because it includes some of the modules for free. But the free doesn't interest me as much as getting the cameras that fit me. I'm also faithful that Jim will offer us many reasons to upgrade to different camera models at different times. I'm perfectly happy to hold onto my RED One until I can buy an EPIC FF35 or 645. Like Ian, I'm continuously blown away by RED One images.

 

[jimhare]

I plan to upgrade. Not so much because I am hungry for the extra DR, features, lower weight and other cool stuff, but because I thinks it's very important to be on the Epic Train for the future. That's where the action will be.

Jim

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

I still have not seen a post from RED saying that the serial number matters for upgrading? Please PM me or point me. Thanks.

Are there any fimmakers on here ? Seems like everybody wants to become a RENTAL Profiteer.

The days of a start up beta testing cameras are numbered...and likely wont be repeated, as it was with RED ONE. The company is growing.

This is business, RED should rent cameras too, as they deserve the REVENUE, afterall they invented these cameras.

If I were them, I would ONLY rent the new Cameras for a while until they had capacity to fill upgrade orders.

Ultiamtely, feeding a 500 first buyers is not going to let them pay for what Im sure is multi-million dollar development costs.

Not sure how many industrial designers are on here, but the DIE's alone for these cameras can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

no disrespect, but people are naive if they think what happened with RED ONE will be repeated with EPIC.

In that you will get those sick $4000/wk Rental Rates. That was rape.
Why do you think RED will delay shipping units so you can make money renting their camera?

Just curious.

They are smart, they dont enjoy the delays anymore than you guys do. I trust they hate it worse, Im sure. Depending on their funding source, they have benchmarks and deadlines... or they lose funding... (unless Im mistaken here) it costs money for most companies to delay shipping.

Ultimately, this is a business... and while the loyalty on here is great...and any company would envy that loyalty. RED would be unwise to ship EPIC or Scarlett's at the same pace they filled RED ONE orders.

ITs unfair to people who bought later serial numbers...who did NOT get to rent their cameras to pay for it.

I for one , could care less of I rent a camera I own. I wouldnt want some loser breaking it... so I have to be punished so early serial numbers guys can rent the new cameras at GOUGE rates?

All I know, is this remarkable sense of entitlement on here, is really starting to annoy me. Sorry.

Where does it say you have all these priviledges just because you bought a low serial number camera?

Where does it say I wont have the same option to upgrade if I buy Serial number 5600? Why would I buy a RED ONE now if thats true?

Just curious. Nobody seems to be answering this question?

Thank you.

 

[Curran Giddens]

I think Offhollywood (6 & 7) and Steve Gibby (8 etc.) deserve to get first dibs on the new cameras. Just like Mike Curtis, even though he's #417, deserves to cut in line. :wink:

I submitted my camera reservation form only after Mike reported from NAB that there were already a few hundred reservations. At least then I won't be the only one to fall for the "scam."

For those who think it is unfair, at least early serial numbers no longer get to cut in line on new accessories. Accessories are now first come, first serve. :huh:

 

[Perry Ho]

I will go for FF35, the R1 still good enough for me to use in Mainland China till the FF35 available for me to up grade, so, I will wait for it...

Perry Ho
Dop - Mainland China

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I still have not seen a post from RED saying that the serial number matters for upgrading? Please PM me or point me. Thanks.

...Been said lots of times. Serial #'s kinda matter, but what matters most is when you took delivery of your RED One. Just because you have #200, you don't get the 200th spot in line for EPIC if you waited until June of '08 to take delivery, you would actually be lumped in with others of that time-frame, mostly #'s in the 1400-1500 range. They have said that manufacturing of Scarlet and Epic will ramp up a lot faster than with the RED One.

Are there any fimmakers on here ? Seems like everybody wants to become a RENTAL Profiteer.

Reporting for duty, sir. Well, I'm not really a "filmmaker" in the sense of narrative or documentary filmmaking. But I'm not looking to buy these cameras to make rental $$$. Although, I'm thinking if I guy the 645, it could have some rental potential, that isn't my reasoning for buying it. IMO, buying a camera with the intent of making rental income with it, is fine if you are an established rental company with an existing base of customers. If you're a small owner/op, I think you're wasting your time. You better be able to provide a lot of added value with your rental -- such as being a skilled operator and/or DIT, DP, etc.. I've said it before. Hire yourself out for your skills... Bring the camera along as part of the deal.

The days of a start up beta testing cameras are numbered...and likely wont be repeated, as it was with RED ONE. The company is growing.

yep.

This is business, RED should rent cameras too, as they deserve the REVENUE, afterall they invented these cameras.

I would like to see this. However, I don't think RED is ready for this just yet. In order to do this effectively, they will need more locations in which to sell and/or operate from. They will need to get their own line of optics out there (RED Primes, hello?), along with a lot more support in the field. I think that's why so many of us have been looking for RED to offer a sales rep program or something of that nature. I'd like to be able to offer a local RED sales and support center. RED has been collecting info from people who may be interested, but that is as far as it's gone. However, at the same time, I truly admire their direct-sales approach and from a consumer point of view, hope they stick close to that model. It will ultimately hold down purchase costs. I think satellite locations would be great more for support and rentals rather than direct sales. But wouldn't it be handy if you could just run by your local RED sales center and buy that cable you need? For those in LA, the RED Store is accessible. For everyone else, we have to place our order, wait 2 to 4 days for it to ship, wait for FedEx to deliver...

If I were them, I would ONLY rent the new Cameras for a while until they had capacity to fill upgrade orders.

Oooh, no, bad.... Sell, sell, sell!

Ultiamtely, feeding a 500 first buyers is not going to let them pay for what Im sure is multi-million dollar development costs.

Probably so, but I think we can trust Jim and his RED Team to know how to pay for what they do.

Not sure how many industrial designers are on here, but the DIE's alone for these cameras can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Of course they do, but then again, we can only speculate about their funding and business plan. I leave it in their hands.

In that you will get those sick $4000/wk Rental Rates. That was rape.
Why do you think RED will delay shipping units so you can make money renting their camera?

Those initial rental rates were pretty rare, even with the first 50~100 cameras. But it's a free market, if someone is foolish enough to pay such high rates for a camera, then that's their business. I don't see EPIC bringing in huge rental rates... But I bet if I'm the first on the block to get one, I'll have a lot of new friends. Kinda like when you buy any other cool new toy that people find out about.

Ultimately, this is a business... and while the loyalty on here is great...and any company would envy that loyalty. RED would be unwise to ship EPIC or Scarlett's at the same pace they filled RED ONE orders.

Yes, and I don't expect that they will. It should be much faster. They had better be ramped up on fixed-lens Scarlet before they start shipping it. Every hobbyist, semi-pro, and up is going to want wan. When I go to some school function for my kids later this year, I bet I'm not the only dad who shows up with a Scarlet. I see enough gadget-dads with FX1's, HVX's, etc..

ITs unfair to people who bought later serial numbers...who did NOT get to rent their cameras to pay for it.

What's unfair? Such is life. Not everyone can be first in line. Everyone has the opportunity to do so. Being #1 on RED's reservation list only took a fax, a phone call, or a trip to the RED booth at NAB '06.

I for one , could care less of I rent a camera I own. I wouldnt want some loser breaking it... so I have to be punished so early serial numbers guys can rent the new cameras at GOUGE rates?

How are you being punished? What makes you think everyone who gets an Epic out of the first shipment will rent it out? And even then will gouge their customers? So what if they do?

All I know, is this remarkable sense of entitlement on here, is really starting to annoy me. Sorry.

I'm confused now.

Where does it say you have all these priviledges just because you bought a low serial number camera?

Free market society. Perhaps you should move somewhere that still employs complete capitalistic repression through strict communism. What privileges are you talking about? A place in line? RED has said over and over again that they will reward their initial customers, early adopters, etc.. They continue to do this by allowing the first to buy a RED One to be among the first in line to buy an Epic. Simple.

Where does it say I wont have the same option to upgrade if I buy Serial number 5600? Why would I buy a RED ONE now if thats true?

If you buy a RED One now, probably Serial #63xx or thereabouts, you have all the same rights as the person who bought a year ago and has #200. The only catch is that for upgrading to Epic, you are further down the line. However, ramping up of Epic production is supposed to happen a lot faster. I'm willing to bet that Epic back-orders will be solved in a matter of 2 to 3 months, rather than 10.5 months like with the RED One. You also have to consider that many people in line will not go for Epic, but will rather go down to Scarlet. Many will keep their RED One for the time being and not upgrade just yet. Either for financial reasons or to wait for something other than Epic-X..

Another thing to look at is if you buy a RED One now, you get the new audio board, the new CF reader module. I'm #1110 and I'm probably a couple months away from my upgraded audio board and I'm still waiting on my new CF reader module and back-ordered 16GB cards. But I have RED RAM :bleh:

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

Hi there, Jeff. . .

Since my first RED was #791 and we got the "upgrade email" several weeks ago, I'll bet that you are probably just about dead on on your estimate for your camera.

Stephen

 

[Steve Gibby]

I will absolutely be buying an Epic X. Beyond that, I'll definitely be buying two fixed lens Scarlet, a FF35 Scarlet, and a FF35 Epic.

Bring 'em on...

BTW - depending on workflow needs, I may also buy more Scarlets and Epics after that.

My equipment gets used by me and my crews on my own projects, and contract productions we work on. I don't rent out my equipment, although when needed I'm a hired gun on other people's projects using my equipment.

On another note, the support given to RED by early adopters, when basically almost the entire industry was screaming "vaporware!", was deeply appreciated by RED, and thus the reciprocation by RED in offering early adopters first crack at Scarlet and Epic. Those who question that simply don't have the flick on the karma circle of rewarding risk-taking support by customers. Yes, we early adopters not only risked our funds, but we also risked our professional reputations by making such an early move on RED. As it turned out, it was an extremely wise gamble on our part. I've known Jim Jannard for a long time, and he especially appreciates those who had the courage to take the early RED leap with him. Its now extremely easy for people to bring themselves to adopt RED - but it was a way different situation back in 2005 and early 2006.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

.

Another thing to look at is if you buy a RED One now, you get the new audio board, the new CF reader module. I'm #1110 and I'm probably a couple months away from my upgraded audio board and I'm still waiting on my new CF reader module and back-ordered 16GB cards. But I have RED RAM :bleh:

Jeff, you'll be next. I'm 945 and sent my camera to Red already.

Hans

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

I will be buying 3 Epic X and then sell them for FF Epic

Edit: Sorry meant upgrading

 

[Anson Fogel]

Yes

Yes

Absolutely, will upgrade to X. Like Gibby, I'm shooting landscapes and sports in remote locations with a 1-3 man crew hauling gear in on foot/skis/rafts/bikes, and 2 critical advantages make it a no brainer -

1. 4K overcranked to 100+ FPS - this is huge for me - 2K does not cut it, and the overcrank ability is one of the main reasons I own RED

2. Weight. For obvious reasons.

Plus all the other advantages.

No brainer.

 

[Brian Reisdorf]

I still have not seen a post from RED saying that the serial number matters for upgrading? Please PM me or point me. Thanks.

Here you go, in Jim's own words no less.

Are there any fimmakers on here ? Seems like everybody wants to become a RENTAL Profiteer.

I'm sure most of us are filmmakers, but we're not ALWAYS working on our own stuff. It's generally a much sweeter deal to let your investment pay for itself when you're not using it.

no disrespect, but people are naive if they think what happened with RED ONE will be repeated with EPIC.

Have you ever bought a newly released camera before? Even the HVX-200 was hard to find for the first month of its life. Bigger cameras usually aren't released in numbers large enough to satisfy EVERY order right away and tend to slowly fill the market over the course of a few months.

Why do you think RED will delay shipping units so you can make money renting their camera?

Are....are you serious? I'm pretty sure no one here as thought that, ever.

ITs unfair to people who bought later serial numbers...who did NOT get to rent their cameras to pay for it.

Wait, so because someone got a low serial camera and made some money off it, it's not fair for you because you ordered a camera X amount of time after and didn't make the same money? That's quite the sense of entitlement.

I for one , could care less of I rent a camera I own. I wouldnt want some loser breaking it... so I have to be punished so early serial numbers guys can rent the new cameras at GOUGE rates?

This makes no sense at all. You don't want to rent a camera, but you're terribly upset that someone else makes money renting theirs? It's pretty obvious that you're not familiar with the rental business, as you've condemned exactly how it works. Someone has a camera you want, but can't have (because of price/availablity), so they let you have it temporarily for money.

If you think low serial guys suck because you can't have a camera before them, check out how Panavision, the premier rental house, does it's business. I'll be expecting a post soon about how thoroughly disgusted you are with their business practice.
Hint: You can't buy their cameras...EVER.

All I know, is I have this remarkable sense of entitlement on here, and it is really starting to annoy everyone.

I went ahead and fixed this one for you.

Where does it say you have all these priviledges just because you bought a low serial number camera?

There's a full list of our benefits, discounts and an epic delivery schedule (with pre-planned delays) posted in the "I have a <200 serial number!" private subforum. Oh wai....

Seriously though, other than the slight discount for the Epic-X and scarlett, there's no big benefit to having a low number other than you're right there in the front of the line if you choose to upgrade. It's posted in several places.

Where does it say I wont have the same option to upgrade if I buy Serial number 5600? Why would I buy a RED ONE now if thats true?

If you buy a RED One, you have the same options to upgrade as everyone else, including trading it up for an Epic-X. If you don't buy a RED One, you can't get an E-X. With all due respect, your frustrations are quite easy to research and answer with some quick forum searches, yet all you've seemed to do lately is complain about low serial number camera owners ruining your day in multiple threads.

Just curious. Nobody seems to be answering this question?

Done.

Thank you.

You're Welcome.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Thanks Jeff ,appreciate the detailed responses... I realize my angst was reflected here, but was actually from reading some other threads...

that entitlement quote came from my annoyance with a couple low
numbers guys talking about how they cant wait to make the $
on the Epics and Scarletts that they did on the RED ONE.

Probably should have included that context... but still figuring out
this forum.

I totally get first ... im just trying to determine if its worth paying a premium
for a low serial number as I really want an EPIC... or if its going to be a reasonable wait, then to just get the RED ONE now.

I also have a wall street background so Im always interested how startups
approach business... my brother is also a corp finance banker and partner at Think Equity. Im always scouting for the next IPO.

I need to do more research on RED ROOTS...

as always, I do find the passion and loyalty intoxicating on here... reminds me of Apple in the 1980's

but some people are fanatical and delusional in my humble opinion.

I also appreciate the info on the advances on the RED ONE... im probably going to just buy a new one... thanks!

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

correction

correction

Mr. Brian Reisdorf...

excuse me? What is with the LAME LIBELOUS Assault, Mr know it all?

I had some of the FIRST SONY EX-1's last year. It was about a 3 month lead time, not 3 years.

I bought one of the FIRST Letus Ultimate Adapters. 10th I believe, as Hien Le
who makes them lives in Portland.

I was one of the first to buy the EX-1 fix for the BREVIS Adapter.

I just had not even seen a RED work, until Shawn Nelson showed up at my
studio with one in 2008 to shoot a trailer and was blown away. He is number 26 I believe and Im happy he made his $ back and then some.

Uncanny how wrong your assumptions were.

I asked legitimate questions. I was frustrated and its this cocky sense of entitlement I speak of...

guess I hit a nerve huh? why else would you respond so acerbically?

my signature does say Kind Regards... may I suggest some deep breathing and relaxation excercises? or you can come visit me anytime and Ill
be happy to help you work on that attitude...

Im simply trying to determine whether to buy NEW or pay a premium for a EARLY Serial number as I want an EPIC... in case you havent figured it out.

A good debate is one thing, pretending like you can sense emotion from electrons is a bit egomanical... as is trying to psychoanalyze my written words. I am flattered though, you give me so much energy.

I also appreciate your differing opinions on business practices as well. But why not quote the whole thread instead of taking what I wrote out of context?

And changing my words in a REAL NAME
forum? That is libelous, childish, disrespectful and crosses the line.

I PM'd you my address if you want to try and demonstrate your manhood
in the real world...

meantime, its probably not a good idea to shit where you eat.

That said, I DO appreciate the link. THAT is all you had to post.


with all due respect.