Current RED audio SUCKS!

[Roberto B]

My audio board upgrade came back yesterday and the new mic pres sound GREAT! Very clean. No noise.

nice to know

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

I use Avid/M-Audio MicroTrack II to phantom power RODE-NTG3.

First set volume and gain at MicroTrack II.

Second Presss record at MicroTrack II and get best audio with

LINE OUT from MicroTrack II to record again to one channel at RED1.

All that with OLD R1 audio board.

Watch and listen result at>>>

The rest of three channels you could feed using Behringer UBB1002

professional battery powered mic/line mixer (has also phantom power 48V).

Using RODE-NTG3 mics you get excellent sound quality that can compete

with Sennheiser, Shoeps or Neuman.

All my listed equipment is on a budget.

Nothing fancy and expensive.

If RED is too loud because of its cooling ventilation fans

no any super expensive and advanced recording equipment could help.

 

[Tom Visser]

I'm with all everyone on going out and feeding a proper signal, but all I'm trying to say is that when miking I find its more about the space than the mic used, etc.

I am easily satisfied, this is true, i don't mind glitches and the such, of course if avoided would be ideal, but in this case, set up an entire multitrack facility on set, then have your condensers charged up and ready.

I just like the SM58, if I'm plugging into a camera, that's probably what I'd do.

I do like to fix in post, I think certain things can be made up for.

At the same time, I've been in audio at a studio recording music for a while, I just started with imagery and booming is completely different for me than the ultra controlled environment you can build in a booth.

I dunno if I'm clear, I have been a mess so I may skip words, but I think if the red has outputs, or if you're recording into something where you can see a lot more than a VU meter, it would be a different case.

Sorry guys, thought I was helping.

Not feelin well. I'll keep it to myself next time, thought someone wanted to plug straight in and go. Fixing it in post is just how i play safe.

Cheers REDusers

Tarek

Hi Tarek,

This is an open forum and my last intention was to start a non-productive argument or seem to be bullying anyone. Please understand that I welcome your disagreement and different experiences as valuable too.

When it comes to music production, I absolutely agree, the room and acoustics and microphone placement has more to do with the production than even the microphone or mic preamp used. When it comes to sound for video/film/cinema, I find that the goal is to get dialogue dry clear - that ambience is usually added in post, not because it sounds "better" this way, but is the only way that a film can be cut together in a seamless way and allow post the flexibility to manipulate the material in a non-linear way. My problems with using a dynamic such as a Shure SM58 going direct to the camera, versus something like a Sennheiser MKH 416 going into a Sound Devices mixer really all comes back to the goal of getting dialogue at proper levels with minimal noise, whether noise floor from the equipment or background noise. Let's say your goal is to get audio to peak at about -12dBFs. If you simply turn up the gain enough on a directly connected SM58 at typical boom distances, your going to have so much room noise that it will be impossible to get rid of it. Also, you will likely clip your audio during dynamic passages, as it will be impossible for you to reduce gain as necessary. The self noise of a mic such as the MKH 416 is greatly reduced, sensitivity is much higher, translating in more source and less background. Having a mixer allows one to turn up the gain when the talent is speaking lower, mic is further away, talent is facing away from mic, etc... and to reduce gain in situations where levels are becoming too hot. This manipulation of the gain levels is what allows us to deliver audio files to the editor that he can use without artifacts that hinders his ability to concatenate a scene that is seamless and provides that credible illusion of realism allowing the audience to get into the film. Our ears are much more sensitive than microphones, and to allow dialogue to pop or drop as the microphone hears it would not sound natural to us.

I think your statement about "playing it safe" just hooking up a dynamic mic into the RED and go may be based upon bad experiences with either "mixers" trying to figuring out complicated audio equipment, or having boom ops that were not experienced... and true, in such a situation, the results can be a disaster. My view is that such direct connection is the opposite of safe, assuming that you have the resources available to you to do it the professional way. Although I wouldn't say "never use noise reduction" like anything, it has to be used in moderation. There is no magical DSP algorithm to fix audio that was not correctly recorded.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Sanjin, if red one's fan is giving you an issue then you should look into a shotgun with a narrower pick up... and a skilled boom op that can handle it properly cause the narrower you get the exponentially trickier it gets to mic properly. If you weren't using a directional mic then any shotgun might do the trick so long as you mic away from the R1 and not towards it.

Good points Tom. The best audio you could give me so that I don't harakiri myself in post is a one with constant levels and one that is as clean as possible of easily discernible noises for continuity. Very good point.

The levels being the same through out each scene at least also helps avoid differences from one line of dialogue due to clean up, and big differences in level matching which doesn't magically increase only the voice and thus increase ambiance and reverb from a reflective environments.

Tarek, please don't feel bad, I am sorry if my post came on a bit too strong and please know that this is not directed to you personally. Still, there is no such thing as hanging microphones for narrative work, not unless you are talking about an awesome overkill setup where you are getting additional tracks of the couch where the subject is sitting, a mic dedicated to the noised from the silverware plates glasses... but in a real world scenario where you won't do that 99% of the time, no matter how much of a wiz you are in the studio --which I bet is far beyond my such abilities-- the single most important aspect of dialogue audio is mic placement... sound intensity drops with the square of the distance to the sound source... the closer you get the more magical your audio will be...that's why in control environments you employ pop filters, to be able to get your vocalists as close as possible to the mic

Rule #1 people... you ALWAYS have time to give your boom op the frame line.

I don't feel like having to record ADR which is almost NEVER as good as the real thing performance wise, and I don't feel like rotoscoping the boom off my best performance take.

Rule #2... NEVER yell at my boom op! Unless you want to risk me going apeshit, he is creating just as well as you are.. I want him to find the best direction in which to mic, I want him to be able to more around and swing as needed and I NEED him to feel respected so he does a good job..

Can you tell I have issues I am dealing with hehe... I <3 you all!

BTW, you don't need to get the wonderful MKH 416 if you can't afford it, an AT4073a can be found for under $450 used and is even considered decent by 416 owners. Couple it with an MK-012a for interiors and you have a solid personal setup. So long as you also have a good boom, shock mount and wind protection. And a good operator.

If the production required more then you will hire Tom anyway and he'll bring and operate his 416 along with a few tenths of thousands in other gear that will properly match your visual efforts... he will operate with the diligence and a love others put into operating their R1s. And your audio won't DESTROY your project that you killed yourself to put together... of course audio can't make a disgusting image look better... but why not add to your production when it is SO inexpensive in comparison? Your full on sound crew is 2 guys... 3 if you add a wrangler, 4 if you add a second boom op... their gear rentals are nothing compared to grip + electric + camera + optics + support + genny...

here is an other way to make my point... please explain to me why movies would pay out millions for score if it wasn't important

and the beauty about it is that if you don't do the audio work and just hire someone you won't bust your ass, you just pay and coexist on set...

The best part may be that when your clients watch your reel and they don't cringe in pain grabbing onto the couch, but instead their brain happily accepts all coming in through the ears without the need to adapt it too much, well they will almost all of the time attribute it to your efforts, assume it was your images that made them feel better than your competitors images even if they were just as wonderful... and they will sign the big fat check right then and there

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Sanjin, if red one's fan is giving you an issue then you should look into a shotgun with a narrower pick up... and a skilled boom op that can handle it properly cause the narrower you get the exponentially trickier it gets to mic properly. If you weren't using a directional mic then any shotgun might do the trick so long as you mic away from the R1 and not towards it.

USlatin,

imagine you are shooting in a car at the temperature +30C/95F with R1 that has a boom/consender mic on.

Only noise of car engine and loudness from outer traffic jam can save you from hearing R1 fans.

I do not have still problem with R1 fans (now is winter in Austria) but just thinking about a hot summer shooting with boom mic on the cam.

 

[Tarek S. Kandil]

Hey all,

Totally not offended, never, I know its an open forum.

I have been in weird places lately, and have been talkin s**t all over, so I read my posts over and realize I ahve no clue.

I totally agree with all you are saying, been in analog audio for years (since 89) and have been recording music, and with analog, I always found it hard to maintain objective w a lot of gear.

As robert keeps saying, which I also agree with, most important in audio, placement placement placement, ie environment.

It's always about the space, especially with the sensitive mikes...

I have extensive experience in the studio, very little in booming for cinema.

Dunno even what a lav is,

I think I'm now single, and live in lebanon, where I do evrything myself, including developing my own film.

Things have been a bit weird, I may have misposted is all I meant, kinda been out of it, and didn't mean to waste space,

Rob, you congratulated me on something I've done that I still ahven't been able to post, sorry mate.

Guys I understand its an open forum, no offense taken at all...

I'm still a kid at all this.

Also seriously been a rough week.

Gonna read some books, cheers guys...

T

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

I've never heard the fans yet, but I guess it was the only way to make R1 back when it first came out. I hope The new brains will take full advantage of smaller more efficient architecture.. Jim said they would generate less heat and use less power, at least that's what I think I remember.

Perhaps a sound blanket not wrapped around the camera but folded and held directly in front of the fan side of the camera could help soak up a bit of that hiss if there is space and a way to hold it in place.

Best wishes for you Tarek, hope you feel better soon! BTW, lavs are the little tiny mics you clip on the shirts of people which are wired to a wireless box you hide in their clothes. A receiving wireless box at your mixer get's the signal... Great for isolated dialoge for that one person, but the bigger you can make your mic the better it will be at a given cost.. that's why your studio mics can be phenomenally huge at times, and to get the same quality on a shotgun style you need to pay much much more, but lavs are so tiny that they are not as good... not sure if they ever would be able to catch up either. Oh and BTW Tarek, one man shows are the most commendable thing ever... the fact that you make it happen at all is a reason for being celebrated in of itself.

 

[Rich Schaefer]

I just got my camera #115 back from upgrades. I shot some tests yesterday and all went great.

I shot with a shotgun mic I borrowed off a Sony camcorder. I powered it off the Red cameras 48v phantom. I used my original (recently approved "OK" by Red) mini XLR to XLR cable right into the mic. It worked great and sounded great!!! (except I need a decent shock mount).

 

[Mark Phelan]

Rub it in. Unfortunately, I am going to possibly be the very last person to get the audio board upgrade since my camera delivered August 31, two weeks before they made the switchover in delivering the cameras with the new board. I'm wondering if Epic will be here before my sound board upgrade. It could happen...

 

[Rich Schaefer]

Rub it in. Unfortunately, I am going to possibly be the very last person to get the audio board upgrade since my camera delivered August 31, two weeks before they made the switchover in delivering the cameras with the new board. I'm wondering if Epic will be here before my sound board upgrade. It could happen...

Sorry Bro, not trying to rub it in. Paitence is a Red virtue. (Its worse with some other unnamed vendors).

Oh No no no, you will have your audio board before you have an epic! Trust an early Red beliver! (#115)

 

[Brian Chapman]

USlatin,

imagine you are shooting in a car at the temperature +30C/95F with R1 that has a boom/consender mic on.

Only noise of car engine and loudness from outer traffic jam can save you from hearing R1 fans.

I do not have still problem with R1 fans (now is winter in Austria) but just thinking about a hot summer shooting with boom mic on the cam.

If you are shooting in a car. Personally i'd try putting a lav mic on each of your actors.

 

[Brian Chapman]

I'm with all everyone on going out and feeding a proper signal, but all I'm trying to say is that when miking I find its more about the space than the mic used, etc.

I am easily satisfied, this is true, i don't mind glitches and the such, of course if avoided would be ideal, but in this case, set up an entire multitrack facility on set, then have your condensers charged up and ready.

I just like the SM58, if I'm plugging into a camera, that's probably what I'd do.

-Tarek



I do like to fix in post, I think certain things can be made up for.

A microphone is like a filter or lens on the camera. It allows you to capture different patterns of sound. Just like a camera filter, you'd use a microphone that helps your specific setting.

My motto is this: no matter how low budget you get, always make sure you get good audio. Hire a good sound recordist to grab your audio. Bad audio makes for a bad headache down the road, and a dent in your wallet.

-Brian