Scarlet 2/3 (Digital to 35mm Transfer Quality)

[chikloo]

Hi All,
I'm new to this RED community. I'm planning to make a movie with $20000 for first Digital copy. Then if I'm able to sell the movie. I want it to be transferred to 35mm Film. I want to know if the quality will be good from digital to film in scarlet 2/3. How much do you think will be the wait time for scarlet 2/3 once it is released?

Thanks in Advance for your answers

chikloo

 

[Dan Hudgins]

Factors?

Factors?

There are a great many factors that effect the quality of a film print made from digital frames.

1) The film recorder type used, CRT, LCD, Laser?

2) Source frames, compressed or DPX/TIF?

3) Filters used to de-noise and sharpen the images?

4) Are you making an internegative on dupe-neg or EI 50 camera film?

5) What f/stop was used to shoot with?

6) What lens was used to shoot with?

7) Was the lens in the film recorder opened up to speed the work, was it in good focus the day of your transfer?

You can spend more than $20000 maybe just making an answer print from your digital frames. You should see if you can do some sample reels of about 100 foot using a rental camera to see if you like the results before you start shooting only to find out that you are stuck with frames that are below your standard. At any rate, what can you shoot for only $20000 that would be worth making a 35mm print?

How good scarlet will look will depend in part on the OLPF it uses, the software filters used in the de-mosaic (de-Bayer), and f/stop and quality of the lens used, if the lens is too sharp you may get some aliasing and chroma moire, if too soft then the extra sharpen can bring out some compression artifacts and noise.

Its best to use good lenses at about f/4.0 to f/5.6 and to not sharpen too much, probably.

 

[chikloo]

Thanks Dan

Thanks Dan

Hi Dan,
Thank you very much for your prompt reply. I understand there are various factor that will come into play. I also saw the Digital to Film print will cost $450/min.
The problem is the movie is going to be Featured in India and there aren't very many Digital Theaters. The movie does not have any special effects. Its a story in a village and If I directly use a film Camera it is going to shoot up the budget. So If I make the movie in Digital and sell the movie I will be able to make prints at the buyer's cost. So My problem is just to find out if it can be transferred to Film with good quality.

The other thing is I don't know if Scarlet can provide such quality. So If I understand you correctly. Yes, Scarlet can with correct lenses, f/stop and a Good Inter negative process.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks again Dan. I will keep in mind the factors and ask my Cinematographer to look into it.

Regards

Chikloo

 

[David Mullen ASC]

The quality will probably be decent for a film-out... but since the camera doesn't even exist yet, that's completely hypothetical.

 

[GPSchnyder]

At any rate, what can you shoot for only $20000 that would be worth making a 35mm print?

I've seen crap filmed on 35mm that did cost millions and where totally shit and Stuff that was done for virtually nothing that looked fantastic on 35mm.

I don't think that the money you put into art can be a meter of being good enough to put onto film. Most of the Time more Money brings in more opinions, and more opinions most of the time means no red line in the work, aka. 0815 Nonsens. Look at virtually all the Hollywood Blockbusters. A Lot of money to produce the same Thing over and over again.

Money doesn't make good Films. People do. And most of the time they are more creative if there is less money...

 

[chikloo]

The quality will probably be decent for a film-out... but since the camera doesn't even exist yet, that's completely hypothetical.

Thanks a lot David.
Is there any other existing camera that will do the job (may be Canon XL H1 A or Canon XL H1S)?

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I'd use a true 24P camera like the Sony EX3 rather than the Canon's 24F format.

 

[Dan Hudgins]

Diy?

Diy?

If you want to save money on a filmout you can maybe try my program DANCINEL.EXE (tm) it is a freeish download from my web site.

If you want to make many prints, then it would be best to use EI 50 camera film to shoot off a 1600x1200 22" LCD monitor, or shoot off a 2048x1536 22" CRT monitor (the two best sizes that work so far).

You would think that the 2048x1536 CRT would look better than the 1600x1200 LCD, but the LCD seems sharper from what I can make out if you use 4:3 and does not have the distortions. If you turn down the height on the CRT monitor to 16:9 the aliasing artifact becomes less, and the overall lack of aliasing about the same as being done on a "real" film recorder.

You can get a 35mm ACME or Oxberry camera for maybe $500 to $750 if you shop around. To make negatives you use a B&H movement. Print stock also comes with B&H perfs from Kodak.

To put the sound on you need a sound negative, but that should cost maybe less that $1000 in India since you use the film going both ways, that is you just need two 2000' rolls of sound recording film for a picture about 88 minutes.

You can see what the results will about look like by going to REDRELAY.net today, download some R3D files, download REDCINE, and make TIF Frames, CC the frames in my DANCAD87.EXE (tm), and export Graded BMP frames, then run DANCINEL.EXE (tm) to make a print.

You need a stepper or animation motor on your camera. Other cameras from AutoMax-Eyemo to 65/70mm can be used in the film recorder, you could aslo use an old 35mm movie projector head if you add a capping shutter in front of the lens. You can even record the sound "electro-print" style using the same old 35mm projector if you use laser doides in the sound head.

How good the results turn out depends on how well you execute the building of the hardware and how well you run it.

If you increase the backlight in the LCD monitor with an external source you can print at 24fps and record the sound at the same time in an old projector, so you can make your own "Cinevator®one - 2K Real Time Film Recorder", see this link:

http://www.cinevation.net/cinevatio...ion.net&page=p_product.jsp&cat=Cinevator&id=8

Right now my DANCINEL.EXE (tm) is probably not fast enough because of harddrive up load time to be run at 1600x1200 at 24fps, but with the right hardware you could write something like it that would go faster.

Another option to get more light would be to use a 1600x1200 LCD projector and point that into the 35mm animation camera lens. The problem with color print stock is the lack of red EI, it takes about a 90 second exposure wih Wratten 25 filter of a normal backlight LCD monitor at T/1.3, the blue and gree exposures are in the 4 to 1 second range depending on the filter and T/ stop used.

You can use Kodak 2302 black and white film to make color seperation negatives off the LCD monitor then make the color prints in a step printer, that would give "Technicolor (tm)" like results, and can work because the LCD monitor has more than enough blue light to expose the fine grain black and white 2302 film. You can use your fimrecorder's animation camera as a step printer if you put a "Bi-Pack" magazine on it, so things do not need to cost much, you replace the LCD monitor with a piece of white plexiglass with a 2K tungstan fixture and some R, G, or B gels on it to work as a light source for printing to color print stock, since you have lots of red light you can print at maybe 4fps or so so you can make one print every couple days, maybe.

If you use a vertical squeeze lens in the DIY film recorder on the 1600x1200 image to reduce the 1200 to 900 high you can reduse the aliasing artifacts since the lines are thinner, you prep the output files to be anamorphic in the right ratio in my Grading etc.

If you have any questions about my DI system feel free to e-mail me.

P.S. There is a plug in for VirtualDub to extract frames and audio from R3D files, you can play with that also, then you do direct from R3D to BMP and WAV files,

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=357675&posted=1#post357675

You can then filmout the BMP frames. I am still working on DANCINEL.EXE (tm) so maybe you should not pass full judgement on the results as they stand, but if you need to start tests it is out of testing.

 

[chikloo]

24 F Vs 24P

24 F Vs 24P

I'd use a true 24P camera like the Sony EX3 rather than the Canon's 24F format.

Pardon me if this is dumb question. Can you please let me know the difference in easy words.

As far as I know 24F is a Canon Term and 24P is a Sony term of 1080 24P.
Will you be able to let me know the difference in CCD and CMOS too?

Thanks David
Chikloo

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Doesn't make much difference whether the camera is CCD or CMOS. Makes more of a difference if the cameras is 3-sensor or single-sensor when you're talking about tiny HD sensors.

24P means 24 frames per second, progressive-scan, although some Sony cameras then store this progressive-scan capture as two fields, called 24PsF (as opposed to "48i".)

24F or "CineFrame" is a process that varies from camera to camera, but what it means is that the sensor is set-up to capture interlaced-scan, not progressive-scan -- i.e. it captures only alternate scan lines as fields, not the whole sensor's lines as a frame. But using some sort of internal processing and trickery, it creates a psuedo-24P effect. Some cameras then convert this fake 24P effect back to 1080/60i for recording & playback. Others allow it to recorded as 24P.

Anyway, fake 24P processes tend to lose resolution and have some artifacts, plus if you are planning a transfer to film, you want to be able to edit and create a true 24P master.

There are some Canon cameras that actually do shoot at 24P, not 24F. Sony cameras also vary in terms of whether they shoot 24P or 24F, so check. They all vary by how they record 24P as well, which may affect your editing process. Some store 24P as 1080/60i with a pulldown which may have to be removed. Others store it as 720/24P or 720/60P or 1080/24PsF, etc.

If you are in a 50 Hz PAL country, then the issue is between 25P and 25F, and some cameras will be recording to 1080/50i.

 

[chikloo]

Thanks David

Thanks David

Thanks David

 

[Jaime Vallés]

$20,000 can absolutely make a narrative feature (assuming there are no car chases or exploding asteroids.)

I've seen DVX100 (Standard Def) footage transferred to film and projected in movie theaters, and it was quite good. Obviously not Panavision good, but certainly doable. The 2/3" 3K Scarlet should, by all rights, look spectacular on the big screen.

 

[Cristina S]

Doesn't make much difference whether the camera is CCD or CMOS. Makes more of a difference if the cameras is 3-sensor or single-sensor when you're talking about tiny HD sensors.

24P means 24 frames per second, progressive-scan, although some Sony cameras then store this progressive-scan capture as two fields, called 24PsF (as opposed to "48i".)

24F or "CineFrame" is a process that varies from camera to camera, but what it means is that the sensor is set-up to capture interlaced-scan, not progressive-scan -- i.e. it captures only alternate scan lines as fields, not the whole sensor's lines as a frame. But using some sort of internal processing and trickery, it creates a psuedo-24P effect. Some cameras then convert this fake 24P effect back to 1080/60i for recording & playback. Others allow it to recorded as 24P.

Anyway, fake 24P processes tend to lose resolution and have some artifacts, plus if you are planning a transfer to film, you want to be able to edit and create a true 24P master.

There are some Canon cameras that actually do shoot at 24P, not 24F. Sony cameras also vary in terms of whether they shoot 24P or 24F, so check. They all vary by how they record 24P as well, which may affect your editing process. Some store 24P as 1080/60i with a pulldown which may have to be removed. Others store it as 720/24P or 720/60P or 1080/24PsF, etc.

And the Canon 24p pulldown into 60i?

If you are in a 50 Hz PAL country, then the issue is between 25P and 25F, and some cameras will be recording to 1080/50i.

What are the differences?

 

[David Mullen ASC]

If the Canon, or any camera, does true 24P capture but records it to 60i, there are methods of extracting the pulldown before editing to get back to the true "P" frames.

25P and 25F recorded to 50i does not need a 3:2 pulldown. Otherwise, it's the same problem: 25F will have some resolution loss because it's being created from a 50i sensor capture.

 

[Tarek S. Kandil]

I transfer my S8 film so far using a sony alpha DSLR. The projector is wired to my shutter and it tells my cam to snap a shot every time the frame is at the gate.

The DSLR is tethered to a pc and I import Image sequences to AE and compile files.

This is the most cost effective way I've figured it out, I can reach some pretty hi res, although I always scale back down. It looks good, I'm still a baby so I dunno if I can catch artifacts and moire yet (still reading about it).

This is a super tedious super manual approach. My rolls are super8 and small though I have the hours to scan at 1 frame per 2 sec.

I am still trying to post results of course I know what i say means nothing without seeing anything. When they finally attach (upload in lebanon is hard set to something like 2K/s I swear its been weeks) I'd like Mr. Mullen's critique on the technique.

Yet for this thread, try and build a system like that it could work. I would but that's coz I"m in lebanon.

You'd need a projector (dunno 35mm models) a condenser lens, crazy precision to mount the two, a DSLR, and one HELL of a disk array (speed speed speed). Also, your DSLR will probably have to be replaced at least 3 times. shutter life span.

I built my setup with a small lab for under 2500.

Tell me if this speaks to you or if its not professional enough to create a DPX.

Cheers

Tarek, the guy who mouths off about super8 and still hasn't been able to post a damn thing.

 

[Dan Hudgins]

DIY Film Scanning...

DIY Film Scanning...

I transfer my S8 film so far using a sony alpha DSLR. The projector is wired to my shutter and it tells my cam to snap a shot every time the frame is at the gate.

My program DANCINES.EXE (tm) can operate something like that, but it allows the scanner to skip over parts of the film roll that you do not need to scan, which can cut the total scan time. There is a TXT type script file you can edit in wordpad.exe that you enter the frame numbers for the start and stop points, you can also have the scanner wait for filter changes.

To improve the color we make color seperation exposures and make three in each color, then use my DANCAD87.EXE (tm) to FUSE the color exposures together to reduce the noise in the images from the DSLR.

You should increase the K value of the light so that it is 5500K or higher to reduce blue noise, in my Grading screens one can see the color seperations as black and white images to compare the noise levels.

Making 27 exposures bracketed can reduce the noise and increase the tonal range to capture about every subtle detail in the images.

We are using 16bit 48bpp TIF frames which are higher quality than DPX and allow for greater color correction changes before you get gaps in the histograms, DPX are better for images that are fully graded rather than for raw scanner data, for raw scanner data the TIF are much better.

In the long run getting a monochrome industral camera may work better than a DSLR since they can capture images faster and do not have a shutter to break.

Have you built a film recorder to output your scans to 35mm print stock yet? My program DANCINEL.EXE (tm) can do that, it runs the 35mm camera through the computers parallel port. DANCINES.EXE (tm) also runs the scanner camera through the computer's parallel port, you get a low current 5V relay and a 5V power supply, the output of the parallel port can "pull-down" about a maybe 360 ohm load, so if the relay is like 500 ohm coil it should be ok. The relay coil goes between 5V+ and the port output pin, and the ground on the 5V supply goes to the ground pins on the port.

Not sure what export laws affect your country, but you can always relocate.

My DANCAD87.EXE (tm) has full color correction so someone could shoot Super8 color negative and correct the color, like in the example of the Kodak LAD I have up at my web site now. It can also edit using TIF or BMP frames, and mix a good sound track with up to 16 channel output (for that many tracks someone could put SMPTE LTC on the optical track of the print and use 8 computers locked to the SMPTE time code for sync playback.)

 

[M Most]

My DANCAD87.EXE (tm) has full color correction so someone could shoot Super8 color negative and correct the color, like in the example of the Kodak LAD I have up at my web site now.

Don't take this the wrong way.....

You have posted a lot of very verbose postings about these programs you have developed here, but I have to ask one question: How many real projects have you actually completed, using either your tools or others? I'm just curious.

 

[donatello b]

in general you might look at other movies that were shot on a single 2/3" chip camera's ...
according to the home webpage at cineform.com, 2/3 of what is shown on the movie screen of "slumdog millionaire" was shot on the SI 2k camera ( 2/3" chip) .. the remainder was shot on 35mm .. it is now playing in theaters ....
looked good to my eye !!

 

[Dan Hudgins]

List of films shot in SI-2K etc.

List of films shot in SI-2K etc.

The Digital Cinema Society has a list of movies shot with digital cinema cameras, some 2/3",

http://www.digitalcinemasociety.org/content.php?page=Dig Aquired 08

 

[Wesley Scoggins]

28 Days Later still looks great to me, and it was shot mostly with an SD camera.

I think the Scarlet (based on the specifications we know about it), will be able to produce images, that when lit and processed well, will be very close to film images.

Seeing what has been accomplished with SD camcorders on so many big films, I feel very confident that the Scarlet will be able to do some truly amazing things, and you'll be able to produce a rather impressive 35mm print from the footage.