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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Why??

Harcharan Singh

Harcharan Singh

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Hi,
My Redcam is arriving next week and I have some qurries:

1. If our final output is 2K to film,what are the advantages of shooting in 4K?

2. After release of the FCP Red plugin to work natively with Red one files, why would I require to render my files through Red Cine or Red Alert?

3. After reading lot of forums I will like to put down the workflow as I understood :
a. Shoot on Red One in 4K , 2:1
b. Edit with proxies in FCP and send to Color.
c. CC in color and render out 2K DPX files for final print.

I know I am a newbie ....but please let me know if I am missing something...maybe lot of things

Harcharan
FCS 2, AJA Kona 3, Intel MAC PRO,Caldigit HDone pro,Panasonic BT26.
 
Harcharan Singh said:
Hi,
My Redcam is arriving next week and I have some qurries:

1. If our final output is 2K to film,what are the advantages of shooting in 4K?
Click to expand...

There are two primary reasons:

(1) 4K RAW Bayer does not equal 4K measurable resolution once converted from RAW to color, more like 3K-ish. So 2K RAW Bayer would be just below 1080P HD resolution once converted. However, sharpness and resolution are subjective and people do get good results even when the numbers tell you otherwise -- look at "Slumdog Millionaire", much of it shot with a single 2/3" 2K RAW Bayer camera.

Another option to consider is shooting in 3K RAW if all you want is a 2K RGB master.

(2) 2K and 3K modes involve cropping ("windowing") part of the sensor image, so you start to lose the 35mm depth of field and field of view characteristics. 2K mode is more like a 16mm-sized sensor area. Using a smaller area of the sensor not only reduces resolution, but may make some noise artifacts more obvious.

And a third reason as well: it always looks better to downsample.
 
I personally don't think this camera is worth it if you plan on shooting 2k. Outside of the high speed framerates, the images are... lets just say I'd much rather stick to the Sony EX 1. 4k is a different story.
 
Shoot 4K, post at 2K

Shoot 4K, post at 2K

Acquire at 4K, this allows you use the entire sensor for proper DoF and take advantage of the benefits of downsampling. Posting at 2K or 1080 is the best option for 98% of projects, but, as David's post suggested shooting at 2K may result in a softer image and negates the advantage of the big sensor.

If in doubt, test - test - test.
 
One HUGE advantage that has not been mentioned is the ability to re-crop your image in post and not lose any resolution. I had a situation that the client asked me to zoom into a section of the image after the shoot was through. No problem. You're not going to be doing that with other cameras mentioned.
 
Another advantage of shooting 4K and finishing in 2K is lower noise: you can make a full-debayer of critical footage and downsampling will eliminate quite a bit of noise, I'd say you can gain about one stop.
 
Newspeak said:
I personally don't think this camera is worth it if you plan on shooting 2k. Outside of the high speed framerates, the images are... lets just say I'd much rather stick to the Sony EX 1. 4k is a different story.
Click to expand...

The images are... what? Could you complete your statement?

EX1 footage does not compare to 2K from any camera, granted the shooter knows what they are doing.
 
The Ex 1 is 1920 which is just a shade under 2k. How could you say it doesn't compare? You can get really nice footage out of that camera. I'm only comparing it to Red at 2k, not Red at 4k.

I would compare Red 2k (sharpness and detail) to something like the JVC HD 110. To my eye, there is a dramatic compromise if you decide to shoot 2k on the Red.
 
Daniel Reischenbach have showed some really lovely footy in 2k, but generally 2k looks so far off 4k originated footage, changes the FOV so dramatically and generally is so different in beaviour that it's not worth it.

When you add to the soup that RC36 @ 4k takes less space than 2k prores, it's really a numb argument - if you are in FCS land.
 
The EX_1 needs some OLPF like any other raster based sensor, so 1920 photosites are not 1920 resolution. It can resolve nearly 900 line pairs, and that's pretty much the theoretical maximum.
That said, the Red One is pretty soft if you are shooting 2K, but OTOH it can take quite a bit of sharpening in post, while I tend to turn down the detail enhancer on any Sony camera I've ever used. After that, they match pretty well – of course without the DR the Red One is giving you in color grading.
IMHO, the EX-1 is the best camera under 10K, and we are glad to have both of them. We have used them both on more than one job.
 
Sorry guys, never meant my comment to be an EX 1 versus Red 2k thing.
 
If you imagine the circle of confusion that a specular highlight makes then you can quickly see why the DoF changes (qualitatively) and the image seems to be softer. Imagine shooting a Christmas Tree out of focus in a background: if you selected the lenses to compensate for the different field of view your 2K specular highlights would be twice as large as the 4K. Those circles of confusion is what creates bokeh, and filmmaking has evolved to the current format largely due to the image being aesthetically pleasing at a given cost to create (product evolution).

Lenses are imperfect devices, and 'zooming in' on capture is a bad idea unless you have a technical need (like trading resolution for overcranking).

Bob
 
On the subject of overcranking, we are preping for a feature that is to eventually have a film out. We are all first time Red users and we have decided that shooting 2K is a good idea, due to a large amount of under and over cranking we will be using. Are we better off shooting the whole film 2K as we are going for a 2K film out at the end of the day, or are we better shooting what we can at 4K and then just reformatting the drive for the days that we know we are going to be shooting in 2k.
 
3K looks better than 2K and 4K looks better than both, so I'd be tempted to use the highest resolution possible depending on your frame rate, even though that may make the post more complicated.

I think for an extreme slow-motion shot, audiences can accept some loss of resolution from shooting at 2K because they are noticing the unusual motion effect more at that point. But for a normal shot, or slight slow-motion, they won't be as distracted from the overall quality of the image.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
3K looks better than 2K and 4K looks better than both, so I'd be tempted to use the highest resolution possible depending on your frame rate, even though that may make the post more complicated.

I think for an extreme slow-motion shot, audiences can accept some loss of resolution from shooting at 2K because they are noticing the unusual motion effect more at that point. But for a normal shot, or slight slow-motion, they won't be as distracted from the overall quality of the image.
Click to expand...

It would be very interesting to see if shooting at 2K at Max overcrank looks better or worse than shooting at 3K or 4 K and using time lapse generated images to achieve slow motion.

One problem with 2K is you will need FAST WIDE lenses. Not sure what glass you are planning on but you might want to pick up a very fast wide prime for that particular shot.

Bob
 
Another reason is simply because you have the highest rez master to go back to (even if you do go to film). Depending on where your film ends up it might be nice to have that. Also, if there are effects and compositing having that extra data to play with will not hurt either.
 
Thks

Thks

Hi,
Thks for your valuable opinions.
Just wanted to know whether it is good to shoot in 2:1 or 16:9 for a film output.
Thks
HS:sarcasm:
 
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