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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The price of glass

G

Gavin Owens

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Firstly, Happy Christmas...If I ever see another slice of turkey I'll :sick: !
I just want to pick the brains of the Red staff and forum users in terms of the future of lenses.
I'm intending to sell my ProHD 201 in order to buy a Scarlet when it arrives but the thought of shelling twice or three times the price of the camera on one or a range of lenses is bothering me big time.
I know that the Scarlet offers a fixed lens solution but for me, that would limiting and I know I would find myself paying for a 35mm adaptor to make up for lost options.
Right, my question is this........
Are the announced 'mini primes' made by the good people at Red or will they be a rebranded optic from one of the big lens makers? If they are from the latter then do you think, along with the revolution that Red is in the midst of those companys will do the unthinkable and offer affordable but high quality glass?
After all, and this might be considered a bold statement but whats the point of releasing an incredible camera and at a price to attract the serious enthusiast when no one can afford to put glass infront of it.

For me, and provided things go according to plan in the Red camp, these cameras are going to sell like hot cakes so the market is wide open for lens producers to raise the bar.

Also, if anyone has a good insight into how lenes are produced then I'd be very interested to hear it.

Thanks

Gavin
 
Petr Dvorak said:
somewhere on net is nice video of how Canon makes glass and lenses

here
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/tech/l_plant/f_index.html
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link Petr. Man, that looks like a lot of work that goes into those. It was very interesting to see the process and I have to conceed..... It looks expensive to produce.
But, after dealing with the lens issues of the JVC (which as a HDV1 camera body goes, it's great) I am driven by the quality and price of the glass for my next camera purchase.
I think at this stage I'm more excited about the mini primes then the Scarlet itself!
 
Petr Dvorak said:
somewhere on net is nice video of how Canon makes glass and lenses

here
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/tech/l_plant/f_index.html
Click to expand...

That video was very cool.
icon14.gif
 
Tom, I have been loving your films on Vimeo.
Inspirational stuff.
 
My suggestion is to get Scarlet with a Nikon mount and get Zeiss ZF primes. Beautiful, fast, and between $500 - $1500 each, tech checked, iris de-clicked and focus geared.

I just received mine and am blown away.
 
Hey jimhare!

That would be nice, but as I understood with Nikon mount you must count on 4x magnifying factor, so you can't use wide angle.

Am I right?
 
from what I am told is more closely akin to a 2x magnification...I think. Still that is enough to make it difficult to get a wide angle lens to appear wide.

(r)yan
 
caitya said:
as I understood with Nikon mount you must count on 4x magnifying factor, so you can't use wide angle.

Am I right?
Click to expand...

No, you're wrong.

(r)yan said:
from what I am told is more closely akin to a 2x magnification...I

(r)yan
Click to expand...
And so are you:)

On a full frame scarlet you'll get the same FOV as on 35mm stills.
 
Yes, you're right. But unfortunately not on 2/3" brain. On this brain you would need more expensive glass.
 
the magnification from ff still to S35 is ruffly 2x though...correct? Any one know the exact magnification?
 
1.5X to 1.64X...

FF35 is 36mm wide and S35 is 24mm wide, which is a 1.5X difference, but 4K mode on the RED is more like 22mm wide, so that's more like a 1.6X difference. But then, we don't know what recording modes on the FF35 EPIC will be in terms of how much of the 36mm wide sensor they use. For example, excluding a lookaround area, perhaps the recorded signal is 34mm or 32mm wide.

Anyway, 1.5X seems like a good figure to use for now.

The difference between 2/3" and S35 is 2.5X, so the difference between 2/3" and FF35 will be 4X.

All this means practically is that on smaller formats, you need to find shorter and shorter focal lengths to get a wide-angle view. So if you like the wide-angle view of a 20mm lens in FF35, you'd use a 5mm lens on a 2/3" camera. This is one reason why it starts to get necessary to use lenses made specifically for that smaller format, when you get into those really short focal lengths.
 
David beat me to it as far as the tech explanation.

This is perhaps the big shock coming for those who are making the leap from fixed lens cameras to the cine world. The lenses are such a big factor, and although you can go cheap (some still lenses won't set you back very much), high quality cine lenses are going to be much harder to get for a bargain. Red may change that to a certain extent, but even their $20K prime set is a hard nut for a lot of people to swallow. While others will consider it a bargain if the quality is high. They are used to paying that amount for one lens in some cases.

I used to wonder why lenses were so expensive until someone explained the process of how lenses were made, and the precision and time required to make them. Then it all made sense.

I can understand the sticker shock Scarlet users might have when they get into buying lenses. I think many might have Gavin's reaction. But you have to keep it all in perspective. You buy what you can afford, do the best you can with it, and rent the ones you can't afford to own. After a while, you make money and you might decide to add a new lens here and there. Just look at an accomplished DP like David Mullen. As far as I know, David doesn't own much of his own gear. He uses what's appropriate for the job, and that is rented for that production. We'd all love to own Master Primes for our Red, but very few do.

Gavin, there are many options, many ways you'll be able to configure your Scarlett. Do as much homework as you can and make informed decisions so that you'll stay within your budget and have a rig that does exactly what you need it to do.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
All this means practically is that on smaller formats, you need to find shorter and shorter focal lengths to get a wide-angle view. So if you like the wide-angle view of a 20mm lens in FF35, you'd use a 5mm lens on a 2/3" camera. This is one reason why it starts to get necessary to use lenses made specifically for that smaller format, when you get into those really short focal lengths.
Click to expand...
Also, the DOF will lengthen with the 2/3rd format making it harder, though not impossible, to get shallow DOF but easier to get deep focus. Take your pick:)
 
Liam Hall said:
Also, the DOF will lengthen with the 2/3rd format making it harder, though not impossible, to get shallow DOF but easier to get deep focus. Take your pick:)
Click to expand...

And a lot more possible than a 1/3" sensor. After watching Benjamin Button, you really can see how shallow you can make the DOF of a 2/3" format camera.

This is actually the main reason why I am thinking about investing in the interchangeable 2/3" Scarlet and possibly investing in the Red mini-primes if they are indeed cheap enough. If they're not, it's off to the fixed Scarlet for me.
 
stevesherrick said:
Gavin, there are many options, many ways you'll be able to configure your Scarlett. Do as much homework as you can and make informed decisions so that you'll stay within your budget and have a rig that does exactly what you need it to do.
Click to expand...

Steve, I think you're right. The Scarlett is a long way off so I will be scouting around to see whats the best lens selection for me. That way I'm ready for when the camera arrives.
My work is based on coporate, documentary and web broadcast so I know one thing already... cine primes would be over kill. I'll probably buy some good SLR lenses and when needed, I'll rent 2/3 broadcast lenses provided they are compatable with the Scarlett.
Thanks
 
Only hope that Red miniprimes will not be dealyed for too long
 
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