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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Underbidding :)

Red package

Red package

Hi,
It includes the following :
1. Red Camera with base production pack
2. 320GB HDD
3. 2 16GB CF cards
4. EVF
5. 5'6 inch LCD
6. Redrock Mattebox
7. Zeiss Standard T2.1 24,32,50,85mm
8. Cooke 25-250 Zoom
9. Panasonic BT1700 field monitor.
10. DIT with on MACbook for onsite backup.
11. Sachteler stand
12. 3 camera caretakers

HS
 
Harcharan Singh said:
Hi,
It includes the following :
1. Red Camera with base production pack
2. 320GB HDD
3. 2 16GB CF cards
4. EVF
5. 5'6 inch LCD
6. Redrock Mattebox
7. Zeiss Standard T2.1 24,32,50,85mm
8. Cooke 25-250 Zoom
9. Panasonic BT1700 field monitor.
10. DIT with on MACbook for onsite backup.
11. Sachteler stand
12. 3 camera caretakers

HS
Click to expand...
Is that an average price, or the lowest you've seen?
 
Red package

Red package

Hi,
Varies from USD500 to USD600 depending on number of shooting days.
HS
 
Thing is that I'm not into rentals as such...
But the price of the Panavision package with glass is less than the state subsided price of glass here... :)
 
Gunleik,

The thing is PV can rent the glass out and stick a camera on the package for nothing... or vice versa. They have a huge amount of stock in the UK from buying up most of the smaller rental companies. A lot of their gear has already notionally paid for itself.

The market in the UK has for many years now been a case of getting the gear on the job at any cost. Look at the number of companies that have recently gone out of business and it's easy to see why. We seem to be exporting this option now!

Mike Costelloe
 
I agree with spotshooter about the race to the bottom.
Some clients will get it and go with a vendor that adds value (backup cameras, depth, DP or DIT coming with a package) Panavision and other large rental houses certainly bring something to the table. But they are now being forced to compete with the kid with the Red zoom and the Manfrotto tripod. And many producers don't get it and will drive the race to the bottom.
The less we all assist in this race the more we will benefit in the long run. Stand your ground. I've certainly bowed out of a few rentals since getting this camera, just as I've bowed out of rentals in the past with other cameras I've owned.
Cheers,
Harry
 
Harry,

Absolutely, stand your ground.

However, how do you deal with the companies that deliberately pit your rental against the cheaper option. Anyone in their right mind will respond to competition. I've been put up against guys offering the complete Red rental package only to discover later that they don't have proper kit, but the company loves the price and the crew suffer.

I offer workflow backup also and have been phoned by companies that used to use me and want my help with workflow from somebody else's rental. You can imagine my response!

We all now this stuff shifts and skews, changing with every job. I give a little and stand my ground a little depending on how much I like the guys with the money.

Mike C
 
The problem

The problem

The problem is and always has been the complete cost of equipment.
As an old rental hand, I can tell you that the camera has always been the item that earnt less money [return] and subsidised the rest of the kit required on the job. No camera accessories and you cannot do the job and make it pay.
RED until now has changed that, but now with everybody renting RED cameras, [The daily rental rate will come down] some inexperienced producers think they can name the price. However RED is not just another camera. You have to know how to handle the workflow before you start. You have to be sure the lenses supplied are ok for the job. You have to know that the supplier has back-up if it all goes wrong. And finally you have to pay the correct money for the job.
Pay peanuts get monkey's still holds today, as it did yesteryear.
The Producers who count know this very well, so stand up for the correct fee and make sure the job goes well, anything less is not worth doing.
Good luck!!
TC.
 
We try to hold on to our prices for our little kit but I know of 5 people in NYC who rent their packages out for $200 a day with lights, lenses and grip and brag about being the cheap guy on the block. A friend put an add out for a DP for a feature since I wasn't available and he showed me the wide array of responses. The one thing I see that they lack is a good reel to back up their talk.
 
how is it that "clients" has enough money to do things 3 or 4 time at 1/2 price ....but never enough money to do it once at the right price?

i have just had a "client " contact me after a year of not talking to me because of price AND i got the "your were right" sentence.

it's easy to say but hard to do - but stand your ground as much as you can......without the banks taking everything that is! and if you have the chance - go back and chase down these jobs after a few months and see what actually went down. 9 times out of 10 they ended up costing more than you originally quoted and it still did not look any good.
 
Hey Wayno,

On this subject I had a company who asked me for a cheaper rental based on the understanding I was shooting the job. 'Sure' said I, first time on Red for them, I was keen to show them how good it was, get my full rate as DoP for a day's recce and a day's shoot, which more than compensated for a discount on gear and some future work. This of course included help with post, rendering out footage / conforming etc. Then they swung the 'Director wants his own guy trick'. 'No problem' says I and walks away from the job.

However the producer got arsey when I didn't honour the gear part of the deal and rang me to tell me how I had behaved unprofessionally! I would have got the equivalent of about $600 for what would have been 3 days 'babysitting' work including holding a back up camera for them. I know they paid 4 times the price with a local video company to bring Reds up and train crew to use them.

Luckily I ran into another 35mm job for the same period and didn't suffer financially. I even tried to talk to the producer later about why I wouldn't subsidise rental without it being part of an overall 'package' where everyone gains from it, including my own crew who earn when I earn but she was adamant, I had let her down.

It seems it only flows in one direction. As a friend of mine says to producers when they ask him for a deal for a job. 'Yep no problem. On this one I'll work 8 hours and you can pay me for 12 and on the next one I'll return the favour.' It's just as well he's damn good at his job!

Mike C
 
Costelloe Michael said:
I know they paid 4 times the price with a local video company to bring Reds up and train crew to use them.
Click to expand...


my point exactly!!

and to ones that really try one me......i look them sqaurely in the eys and tell them if they want to go another way that is fine but if they bring me the job abck to fix it up i will charge them double.............and have done so.
 
Hello All,

Just to chime in. There had been a comparison of all kinds of Cameras: RED, Arri D-21, The Genesis, Sony 900R, Sony F35, etc

The test was done by the BSC and they shot same scenes in a controlled environment using all the latest cameras. The verdict was the Genesis gave the most 'acceptable' image on the big screen. the 'RED' did not give good red colour when it was projected on the screen! The next best was Arri D-21 and F35 (but room full of DPs said 'Still not good enough')

With regards to the production going for the Genesis not the 'RED' could possibly due to the familiarity of the system in post-production. Completion bond costs 50% more for HD so it may likely be that, that is why production went for the Genesis, because of familiarity.

The longer it takes in post-production, the more it costs. And I think the 'RED' hasn't found its place in the industry yet, and the post-pro nightmare will contribute to the decision making of choosing of camera by the producer! not by the DP!!

just my humble opinion

Yuri
 
Spike said:
We try to hold on to our prices for our little kit but I know of 5 people in NYC who rent their packages out for $200 a day with lights, lenses and grip and brag about being the cheap guy on the block. A friend put an add out for a DP for a feature since I wasn't available and he showed me the wide array of responses. The one thing I see that they lack is a good reel to back up their talk.
Click to expand...

Amazing. What type of kit are we talking here? Can you get a 2575 head, cine primes, ff-4, mb-20... at these prices? At $200 a day I could rent and not even need to own a Red plus accessories.
 
Costelloe Michael said:
Hey Wayno,

On this subject I had a company who asked me for a cheaper rental based on the understanding I was shooting the job. 'Sure' said I, first time on Red for them, I was keen to show them how good it was, get my full rate as DoP for a day's recce and a day's shoot, which more than compensated for a discount on gear and some future work. This of course included help with post, rendering out footage / conforming etc. Then they swung the 'Director wants his own guy trick'. 'No problem' says I and walks away from the job.

However the producer got arsey when I didn't honour the gear part of the deal and rang me to tell me how I had behaved unprofessionally! I would have got the equivalent of about $600 for what would have been 3 days 'babysitting' work including holding a back up camera for them. I know they paid 4 times the price with a local video company to bring Reds up and train crew to use them.

Luckily I ran into another 35mm job for the same period and didn't suffer financially. I even tried to talk to the producer later about why I wouldn't subsidise rental without it being part of an overall 'package' where everyone gains from it, including my own crew who earn when I earn but she was adamant, I had let her down.

It seems it only flows in one direction. As a friend of mine says to producers when they ask him for a deal for a job. 'Yep no problem. On this one I'll work 8 hours and you can pay me for 12 and on the next one I'll return the favour.' It's just as well he's damn good at his job!

Mike C
Click to expand...

Sounds like the producer was only looking for your gear at a discount in the first place. It's well understood that gear at a discount is only part of a package including the owner as dp. Can't say much or work with producers who pull that kind of shite.....
 
Costelloe Michael said:
As a friend of mine says to producers when they ask him for a deal for a job. 'Yep no problem. On this one I'll work 8 hours and you can pay me for 12 and on the next one I'll return the favour.'
Click to expand...

LOL, I am going to keep this in mind when somebody asks me the next time...

M, all of what you mentioned brought me to be a producer - and not just the author&director. And those freelance-cameramen who cancelled my shoot 4 hours before the appointment brought me to shoot myself - with my own gear. And I also think that it will become more difficult for mere directors, mere producers or mere operators in the upcoming years. And quality will be essential: 1. of stories 2. of images (this is the order as presented at the WCSFP earlier this month - no-one of all these broadcast-people was talking about low-cost).

Not bad times for those who take the job serious, or am I wrong?

All the best to everyone for 2009!

Fritz

www.blueandgreen.info
 
facetmedia said:
Amazing. What type of kit are we talking here? Can you get a 2575 head, cine primes, ff-4, mb-20... at these prices? At $200 a day I could rent and not even need to own a Red plus accessories.
Click to expand...
As much as I want to put the emails here I won't but they have decent kits and one even has a one ton GE truck that comes with it.
 
They'll never make their money back at $200 per day. If they spent even as little as $40,000 with accessories (and more for the nudnik with the G&E package) that's 200 days. There are only so many days in a year...
And they will learn a lesson when we all move on to Epic etc. and they still have not made more than 17% ROI. They'll be stuck with yesterday's camera with no money to upgrade. Then where can they go? Down to $100 per day? $50?
What, do they all live in their parents' basements???
Laughing...
Harry
 
Hehe if some guy let you have hits kit for $200/day. Then rent it and use the heck out of it and have your own cam just as backup ;)
 
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