Which SCARLET to buy?

[Eren Ozkural]

Hi guys, im just posting my ruminations about which model to buy. I originally posed this question in the general DSMC forum/Pick your Brains poll. I thought i'd expand on it ever so slightly here and, well, it's more appropriate to pose this question in the SCARLET forum.


Here's my predicament:

-I would love to buy the S35 SCARLET for it's resolution and compatability with a wide variety of still lenses that I can buy while giving me the flexibility to rent good cine glass for higher profile projects.

-However, I can get the 2/3 Fixed Lens SCARLET for much cheaper, I can shoot out the box and perhaps most crucially it can shoot at 150fps in burst mode.

-Sure, the 2/3 SCARLET CINE would let me use whatever 16mm and 2/3 lenses i need and thus be alot more flexible and "professional" however the prices of good 16mm/HD Fujinon lenses would mean that I could only rent them instead of owning a set of primes or a zoom. Sure there are the RED mini primes but I have no idea what so ever as to what they will eventually cost.

-Since the 2/3 Fixed Lens SCARLET has a substantially different design that the rest of the DSMC line I'm not sure if it will be compatable with all the modules required for a proper cine setup. i.e I doubt that I can build up the Fixed Lens 2/3 SCARLET and then just buy another brain later on.

-The S35 SCARLET is the first model to ship however the massive initial demand, the model's apparent popularity and RED's "fashionably late" delivery times mean that I probably won't get one until the winter at best....which is when the 2/3 Fixed Lens SCARLET is due...

Any ideas guys? I mainly shoot music videos and short films with an eye to shooting a feature within the next 2 years.


So which model to buy? To be perfectly honest none of the content I make within the next few years will go beyond TV and the Web. Even if I'm insanely lucky and my feature gets picked up it'll be straight to dvd.

I'm in the process of leaving my job as the manager of programming for a prominent IPTV channel because I'm young and have no dependants: it's the best time to strike out really.

The problem is, i probably wont be able to get my hands on a SCARLET until next winter so I need to buy a camera in the mean time: the obvious choice is the Sony PMW-EX3 (which I use on a daily basis at my current job), however it does come at a steep price and I'm afraid the re-sell value will drop like a stone when the SCARLET becomes available.

Just a little info on myself:

I'm 23, went to film school, have been working in this job for the past year and a half. Before that I directed music videos and worked as a pa, spark, grip, editor, camera op, sound recordist on a number of films.

Ive directed shoots in over 10 countries from America (Las Vegas) to Taiwan (Taipei) in conditions ranging from the searing desert to Zero Gravity (in a parabolic flight over Las Vegas; what a crazy town- perfect for the RED RANCH )

I currently own a Braun Nizo s8mm camera, A Bolex 16mm camera on the motion side, a bunch of old Russian and Canon SLR 35mm SLR's, a Holga and Diana F+ medium format Lomo cameras on the stills side.

I've also operated a whole load of miniDV and DV cameras, Sony HDW-750p, Arri SRII amongst other cameras as well as the RED ONE

So I feel that I can cope with the S35 SCARLET's feature set, it's just the high price (for me) and maximum fps of 75 that make the 2/3 option more attractive.

So which camera should I buy?

Should I get an EX3 in the meantime and hope that I can sell it off when the time comes?

Am I crazy for quitting working for "the man" and going solo?

Thanks.

 

[Noah Kadner]

It's hard to make a concrete recommendation without having cameras in front of me to play with yet. Personally I think the fixed lens Scarlet is awesome sounding but I much prefer the flexbility of interchangeable lenses. That opens up the creative possibilities much wider than a fixed lens could.

The EX3 is a solid choice but it's worth a rental. With the XDCAM EX format and of course the standard issues of rolling shutter you get with any CMOS camera it's worth a good look to see whether it works for you. Also which optics would you get with the EX3. Good ones are pricey. Most folks just wind up with the standard zoom which is pretty much the same thing you have on the fixed lens EX1. There's also all of the 35mm lens adapters like Brevis, Letus, RedRock, etc that would give you the best of both worlds.

Personally I'd also look into the Panasonic HMC150. It's amazing quality for the price, SDHC media is dirt cheap and you could hook it up with a lens adapter and some sweet Canon or Nikon lenses for the money you saved on the body and have a sweet package while you await the Scarlet.

Noah

 

[Eren Ozkural]

Thanks for the suggestion Noah.

Im very familiar with the EX3, having used it daily for the past few months. What really puts it ahead of the curve in my opinion is the overcranking and the 1/2 inch sensor. You're also right about the skew: theres plenty of jelly and God forbid that someone were to use a camera flash/strobe lighting in a shoot...

I wonder why the S35 SCARLET can only overcrank up to 75fps, obviously some trade-off between resolution and refresh rate at the sensor design level...

Does anyone recall Jim or anyone else at RED making comments regarding their readiness for shipping DSMC units in high volumes? My biggest fear is that RED won't catch up to orders until summer 2010...

What would be cool is if RED made adaptors for the fixed lens SCARLET like a fish eye attachment, an extender etc. etc.

As far as I know the only difference between an EX1 and EX3 is ergonomics, does anyone know if there are any other major changes made between the two models? An EX1 is significantly cheaper to buy...

 

[Stephen Williams]

As far as I know the only difference between an EX1 and EX3 is ergonomics, does anyone know if there are any other major changes made between the two models? An EX1 is significantly cheaper to buy...

Hi,

The EX3 does not have a fixed lens, however I have only ever seen one with the same lens that is fixed to an EX1.

Stephen

 

[Andrew Gentle]

Sure there are the RED mini primes but I have no idea what so ever as to what they will eventually cost.

Jim said here on Scarletuser that they would be 'priced right'. I know that I'm going to get a 2/3" version but I'm not completely sure which one yet. I'd really like to see the difference in DoF between the fixed zoom and the primes. If RED released an interchangeable version of the fixed lens for the CINE then it would make things easier, too!

 

[Eren Ozkural]

To be honest, maybe because I'm a philistine, I'm very happy with the stock lens you get with the EX3. Since im only looking for a stop gap camera to own for less than a year, i think an EX-1 may be the best way to go. Thanks for clearing that up, Stephen.

I think that another SCARLET poised between the fixed lens version and the CINEMA model would only muddy the waters, but I see where you're coming from Andrew. To be able to shoot off the bat for <$4,000 but retain the ability to change lens mounts: thet'd be having your cake and eating it

Im just happy that I can technically buy two cameras from RED at the same time, even though they are of the "soccer mom" variety

I'm just curious, knowing the difficulties in fabricating quality lenses at S16mm sizes: what pricing should we expect from the red mini primes/what would make any of you happy? What about RED mini zooms?

My completely bat-shit crazy pricing list would be $1000 for a mini zoom and $500 per mini prime, but that's just preposterous. I'd be stupid not to be happy with $1000 per prime.

Then again, I've certainly enjoyed the results ive gotten when working with prime lenses but as a director/operator I love shooting with a zoom lens. Much more intuitive and fluid. I believe Paul Greengrass and Doug Liman prefer working that way aswell.

I guess there are three main reasons why I wouldn't go for the fixed lens option:

1. It comes out later, next Winter at best.
2. Possible lack of compatability with the rest of the DSMC range/lack of upgradability
3. The fact that it's the entry level model. Yes, I know it sounds very stupid but clients can be very superficial and the slightest edge in prestige over the next guy counts in the business.

What're your thoughts on this guys? Does the fact that the fixed lens option is the entry level product make you want to stretch your budget onto a higher tier, even if the fixed lens SCARLET has most of the features you could want?

 

[Stephen Williams]

Assuming the fixed lens is good wide open, then I think that would be the way to go

 

[César Díez]

but...

but...

i´m in a similar position... s35 o 2/3"... but... just one question...:

can s35 model make everything that 2/3" does?

if i can change the lens adaptor... i can go with s16mm/HD 2/3" lenses sometimes and rent 35mm lens when the project needed (client money) making the s35 sometimes working like a 2/3",and sometimes "just" a s35... or not? or yes? :w00t:

please, correct me if i´m wrong (english inclusive,

 

[Eren Ozkural]

The single biggest difference for me concerning the 2/3 CINEMA SCARLET and the S35 model is the overcranking. 72fps is great and can be stretched a bit with optical flow in post but 150 burst is a dream come true.

I find that unless there are any flashes of light/water splashing/transparent foreground objects passing over the subject, slowing things down by 50% using optical flow works pretty well; which means as long as I plan the shots with this in mind, I can get great 300fps from the 2/3 SCARLET

But yes Cesar, the S35 SCARLET can do everything else the 2/3 CINEMA SCARLET can at a higher resolution with a wide choice of lenses but at a slower frame rate.

 

[Paul Brand]

i´m in a similar position... s35 o 2/3"... but... just one question...:

can s35 model make everything that 2/3" does?

if i can change the lens adaptor... i can go with s16mm/HD 2/3" lenses sometimes and rent 35mm lens when the project needed (client money) making the s35 sometimes working like a 2/3",and sometimes "just" a s35... or not? or yes? :w00t:

please, correct me if i´m wrong (english inclusive,

You probably know this already, but you must make sure the lens you are using covers the sensor area properly. (caution: oversimplification ahead) A lens designed for a 2/3" sensor may vignette on the s35 sensor brain. A lens designed for s35 use will appear as more telephoto on the 2/3 sensor brain. So...

Yes, a s35 brain with lens(es) and accessory modules could be good for some jobs. A 2/3" cine brain with lens(es) and the same accessory modules you already have for the s35 brain could work better for other jobs. You could perhaps purchase the accessory modules and a brain and rent lenses as needed. Or start small and rent when you need something better. That is the beauty of a modular system.

paul

 

[Eren Ozkural]

Thats very true Paul, my one concern with the Fixed Lens SCARLET is it's body; since we can assume that the finder/power and media all fit inside the body can it interface with the i/o module/external power/wireless remote?
If so, that'll make me really happy. Buy the soccer mom option and build a rig around it. Rent better brains/lenses as needed until buying one becomes a viable business decision.

 

[Mark K.]

Eren, the best thing you can do is buy the best equipment that you can afford, and then use it for as long as you possibly can.

If you're pushed for cash but really want a camera, then get the Scarlet 2/3" at first. Shoot it, make some money with it, and when you're in a better position financially, sell it and upgrade to a S35 brain. You'll have all the other parts so you'll only need to upgrade the brain (and that will be just $7,000 minus whatever you get for selling your 2/3").

 

[Eren Ozkural]

Cheers Grug. Thing is I have quite a bit of Canon and Nikon glass, so the S35 version is in my price range aswell. I guess it's a choice between a fully kitted out 2/3 fixed lens or a barebones S35 brain. The S35 brain will cost more but will probably get more work and faster...

Ah choices choices...

Just to complicate things further, Im in the market for a DSLR. I can get a D90 with 10-110 lens, sdhc card and bag for £750. The 2/3 SCARLET just wont cut it as a still camera, whereas the S35 12.xx mp resolution will be acceptable and save me £750 on the D90.

 

[Mark K.]

How soon do you need the DSLR? Because you'll be waiting a while for Scarlet! They are tough choices though, what would you be using the camera for?

 

[Eren Ozkural]

The ex1 mainly for lower budget music videos (rent RED or film for the bigger budget vids) and short films and the DSLR for landscape/timelapse/product photography.

All for business basically, not just to play around with

 

[Mark K.]

Fair enough! Have you considered something like the Letus Extreme 35mm adapter for the EX1? They make one heck of a combo as far as IQ is concerned, and bang-for-buck I'd say it's one of the best video kits going at the moment (for low-budget work).

It's a much smaller investment, but opens up a whole lot of options (visually) whilst you build up to something like Scarlet.

 

[Eren Ozkural]

I've used movietube back in the old days and wasn't too happy with it, but the letus looks great. It's just an additional £1000 for something I'm not planning to keep for a year though. Im leaning towards a vanilla EX1 but...this is a strange way of going about things, will the premium production pack be compatible for the DSMC line? If so, I could kit out my EX1 with the RED rails sytem, get a redrock MB, tripod and if money's coming in, perhaps an inclino? Although I have the feeling that I'll recieve the Scarlet before the FF They do look tempting though...

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

It's a difficult question huh..

I'm saving up for the FFScarlet because I also want to take stills with it, and since I got my 5D I couldn't go back to a cropped sensor..

 

[luketheduke]

Finally I read the (possible!?!?) price of the Scarlet with fixed lens: complete kit. $ 3.750. Some one can explain to me if ... complete kit means a "out of the box" camera. In other words a camera ready to use ???
Thanx, Luca.

 

[Ryan Valle]

Scarlet 3K 2/3" Fixed 8X T2.4 zoom lens - a physically larger Scarlet body to accommodate the internal fixed lens, this camera is the evolution of the Scarlet announced at NAB '08. Full featured and designed to take on all video competition, Scarlet 2/3 8X can fly light and hand held or be integrated into any professional configuration by virtue of complete compatibility with all RED DSMC accessories. The basic "Brain" with lens will be priced at $3K. The complete kit, with power, finder and media module is targeted at $3.75K.

It sounds like it would work out of the box, though some sort of media (CF card?) would be required to actually start recording. I am waiting to get more details bcause I would love to know what are the audio options that come with the unit. I am hoping for atleast one or two XLR ports.