How will Scarlet stack up feature-wise to competitors at the same price point?

[Daniel Kennedy]

I am very interested in the Scarlet when it is available but I have been considering the Panasonic HPX170. The Sony EX1 has better resolution than the HPX but the rolling shutter issues of the CMOS sensors are an issue for what I shoot. This is why I have been looking at the Panasonic. Has RED been able to successfully deal with the rolling shutter issues?
Some of the other things about the Panasonic HPX170 that interest me are the built-in waveform monitor and the focus assists. Are there any of these features available on the current RED ONE? Are they likely to be part of the Scarlet?
I am currently still shooting action sports in SD and have decided to make a switch to HD. For me the switch is not urgent and I would gladly wait to spend the money on the Scarlet if it is likely to be what I am looking for.
Since I don't know much about what features are available to RED ONE users; I am curious what things I have come to expect from the prosumer market might be on the Scarlet and what things I am likely to have to do without. I believe I read somewhere here that image stabilization isn't likely to be on the Scarlet.
Can anyone give me some insight as to what can be expected based upon what RED has now and where they might be going?

Thanks in advance

 

[Mark K.]

Daniel, if rolling shutter artefacts are a concern with your shooting, you should avoid any camera that uses them (this includes the Sony EX cameras and Red's cameras too). I'd say the HVX170 would be a good choice for you.

The main concerns you'd have moving from a 3-chip video camera to something like Scarlet would be in the controls, the Red cameras are setup for digital cinema, and as a result require fully-manual, video cameras generally offer various levels of automatic control (focus, iris etc.) so that should also play a large part in your decision.

 

[David Didato]

The RED does currently have waveform and focus assist among other on screen tools such as false color, etc.

 

[Daniel Kennedy]

Thanks for the replies. I am happy to hear that both the waveform monitor and focus assist are already available controls on the RED ONE and hopefully they will also be on the Scarlet.
I am a little concerned about the lack of automatic controls too. I don't use full auto but the one auto feature I do use is the auto focus. I turn it off whenever possible but when doing action sports I often find it to be the lesser evil than trying to manually focus on a subject whose relative distance from my camera will change dramatically and often quickly.
Others have been able to do amazing work with manual focus and I am an amateur aspiring for better every time out. As such, my style is evolving and the techniques I used all the time before are being complemented with others more and more and some of these techniques don't require the auto focus as much as my older methods.

Since I come from camcorders that have a fixed lens I am not really sure what lens I should be looking for to do the kind of filming I do (action sports). Would you guys recommend the fixed 8x lens or if I go with an interchangeable system what kind of zoom range would you recommend (assuming I can only afford one to start)?

 

[Gary Stone]

scarlet's full specs haven't been finalized, but i seem to remember auto focus being mentioned. red's new lenses are auto focus and have IS so it's a safe bet.

i think what you should look into is the RED workflow. that's going to be the determining factor. this IS NOT a video camera. image quality wise, the panny and ex3 can't even get in the same room with RED.

 

[Patrick Kaplin]

I'd say go for the inter-changeable. So many more options down the road. And pick up an 18-50mm or 18-85mm for your first lens. That's a fairly nice range, but you may feel that your wide-angle side is lacking for action sports filming. So look into an 8 or 10mm as well for that style of filming.

 

[Paul Brand]

My vote is also for the interchangeable model to give you more options later. If you can only get one zoom lens, I think you should look for something in the 9 or 10mm to 70 or better range. Having 18mm as a wide in the 2/3 format is not really that wide.

paul

 

[Jason Badham]

... if rolling shutter artefacts are a concern with your shooting, you should avoid any camera that uses them (this includes the Sony EX cameras and Red's cameras too)

This is wrong. The rolling shutter issue has been beat to death on these forums. If you do a search for rolling shutter in the Recon forum (or in scarletuser) you will see a lengthy and more full discussion about the topic, including Jim's own words explaining why RED's CMOS designs are much better.

Film cameras have "rolling shutters". The only time you have problems with sensors is when they can't dump the data off the chip in enough time to start imaging the new frame - AKA the read-reset time. The Mysterium-X and Monstro chips are designed with very fast read-reset times to drastically reduce rolling shutter artifacts.

 

[Mark K.]

This is wrong. The rolling shutter issue has been beat to death on these forums. If you do a search for rolling shutter in the Recon forum (or in scarletuser) you will see a lengthy and more full discussion about the topic, including Jim's own words explaining why RED's CMOS designs are much better.

No Jason, it is not wrong. If a person shoots in the sorts of conditions that induce rolling-shutter related artefacts (i.e. where the sensor is going to be exposed to shaking/fast movements, or flashing/strobing light sources) then it would down-right foolish for them to use a camera with a rolling-shutter when there are viable alternatives that won't be impacted by those same artefacts.

Why would any shooter want to put themself on the back-foot like that?

The quality of Red's CMOS designs have nothing to do with it, these artefacts are caused by the nature of a rolling-shutter's exposure. Now from what I've seen of the Red One so far, I'm convinced that skew caused by the camera's rolling-shutter is of no concern at all under most shooting conditions. But as the OP clearly stated, rolling-shutter artefacts are a concern for the shooting he does. And a camera that handles those artefacts better than most is still going to be a worse choice than a camera that doesn't suffer from them at all.

 

[Michael Schmitt]

The quality of Red's CMOS designs have nothing to do with it, these artefacts are caused by the nature of a rolling-shutter's exposure. Now from what I've seen of the Red One so far, I'm convinced that skew caused by the camera's rolling-shutter is of no concern at all under most shooting conditions. But as the OP clearly stated, rolling-shutter artefacts are a concern for the shooting he does. And a camera that handles those artefacts better than most is still going to be a worse choice than a camera that doesn't suffer from them at all.

Sorry about the dead horse thing, but I understand the new Mysterium chips will be 40% faster than the current flavor. I'm counting on the rolling stutter to be minimized by the time the Scarlet is released.

Man, I'm looking forward to this camera!!!

 

[Noah Kadner]

i think what you should look into is the RED workflow. that's going to be the determining factor. this IS NOT a video camera. image quality wise, the panny and ex3 can't even get in the same room with RED.

I'll reserve judgments like that until I see actual Scarlet footage. Having shot with the EX3 and the Panasonic using 35mm lens adapters, I'll say you can get damn nice imagery on those cameras. Not going to get to 3K, but if you aren't going to film you don't need that. In the 1080p world those cameras are solid for the price, rolling shutter or no.

Noah

 

[Aiden Cornwell]

HVX about 1k above scarlet fixed lens.

 

[Michael Schmitt]

HVX about 1k above scarlet fixed lens.

And my HVX has served it purpose.

 

[Aiden Cornwell]

And my HVX has served it purpose.

Yup if everything goes according to plan Scarlet will be the HVX killer. Now that it has full frame 1080p makes it perfect for most uses of the HVX.

I really want to go for the Scarlet brain at 2.5k but I really think I will have to make my final decision after I find out the price of the red-mini primes.

 

[Cedric Akins]

Guys I may be wrong, but I believe that we are comparing apples to oranges. Both are good but they are not the same type of fruit. Look at the Thompson Viper, Cinealta and cameras similar to them, including the Red One itself. These cameras are closer to the features the Scarlet. Let's face it we have to look at the features in that manner and not by the price of the unit. The features of the Sccarlet makes it the professional tool that it is. Although the price is what makes it the buzz of the indepent film community.

 

[Tom K]

When are we going to get a price listing for the scarlet and epic lenses, as well as the other accessories? My biggest worry is that the incredible prices for these cameras will be rendered "obsolete" once the other prices are released. The scarlet 5K with it's $7000 body won't be that impressive when the lens for it is equal to that or more.

 

[oldphart]

When are we going to get a price listing for the scarlet and epic lenses, as well as the other accessories? My biggest worry is that the incredible prices for these cameras will be rendered "obsolete" once the other prices are released. The scarlet 5K with it's $7000 body won't be that impressive when the lens for it is equal to that or more.

The Scarlet is much more flexible with lenses than any other camera, since you have exchangeable lens mounts. You can use the same lens as for another camera of the same image size, so lens prices will be the same for any comparable camera.

Of course, you may want better lenses because of the better photodetector, but that is the same as for shooting ISO 50 film compared to ISO 800.

 

[Cedric Akins]

When are we going to get a price listing for the scarlet and epic lenses, as well as the other accessories? My biggest worry is that the incredible prices for these cameras will be rendered "obsolete" once the other prices are released. The scarlet 5K with it's $7000 body won't be that impressive when the lens for it is equal to that or more.

You can always option for the Canon or Nikon Lens mount. Let's face it these cameras will be around for quite some time, that is once they are made. And the S35, FF35, or any of the newly designed Red Cameras can be considered obsolete.

As of now the cameras are :construction: . You may come to find that the lenses aren't too expensive once they are finished.

 

[J Davis]

Yup if everything goes according to plan Scarlet will be the HVX killer. Now that it has full frame 1080p makes it perfect for most uses of the HVX.

I thought this too. And I also thought that Panasonic will not just abandon their production line, they will just drop the price on the HVX200a / HPX170 ... which in turn will force all the other GL2's and Sony's etc to also shuffle down in price.

 

[ETCFILMS]

I kinda think it's going to be different.

A. The Japanese giant won't response quickly.

B. After Scarlet are in the hands of the end user - it will be another year (at least) for the semi-pro to catch up.

C. At the end of the day - many many things about marketing - yes word of mouth is great. But look at the budget the other Japanese giant spending on marketing?

For the moment, RED / Scarlet / Epic this name are probably well known among the "geeks" but not to the wider world yet. It will take a few more years before the soccer mom will take notice also don't forget the post production is another issue. Those sm/d they don't care about 90% of things we talk about here - in fact they don't have a clue what we are talking about at all. They want to shoot then watch / or put it on a DVD and send to the soccer grand dad ....

The big Japanese consumer company / pro-summer (is there such thing honestly) won't cut price because of this "small" threat. In fact, they can get away with it for years to come. They will keep on giving you skip line / 720p called HD for 6K in pounds! Because they can.

On the other hand, who really will have to face up to the challenge is the REAL Pro camera companies - because it's niche. Including the Japanese giant's pro production division. This will be the area where we will see some interesting things to happen.