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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The big choice: Epic S35 or FF35...

David Mullen ASC said:
Which is why I wish there would be an Epic with a 6K Monstro sensor that was S35 in size. Then I could shoot 6K RAW and get a better 4K RGB image while using the best PL glass I could find.
Click to expand...

Whilst agreeing with you in principal, my assumption (careful...) is that the DR and S/N benefits of Monstro are achievable in part because of the bigger pixel size. If they were to scale down to S35 size whilst maintaining the same resolution I imagine it would take a fair hit in terms of noise and latitude.

If you look at the Mysterium-X, they've made some improvement over the DR and S/N characteristics of the current sensor whilst keeping pixel size the same. The extra resolution seems to derive from making the sensor physically bigger. How this matches up to the imagining circle of 35mm PL lenses I'm unsure.
 
Stephen Webb said:
Whilst agreeing with you in principal, my assumption (careful...) is that the DR and S/N benefits of Monstro are achievable in part because of the bigger pixel size. If they were to scale down to S35 size whilst maintaining the same resolution I imagine it would take a fair hit in terms of noise and latitude.

If you look at the Mysterium-X, they've made some improvement over the DR and S/N characteristics of the current sensor whilst keeping pixel size the same. The extra resolution seems to derive from making the sensor physically bigger. How this matches up to the imagining circle of 35mm PL lenses I'm unsure.
Click to expand...

It's a balancing act between pixel size, resolution, dynamic range, etc.
Both S35 and FF35 are the way they are because that was the balance of all the variables. We're offer both because some people will prefer one balance of the other.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
Yes, I can see the advantage of the FF35 sensor for anamorphic lenses, since the sensor is 24mm tall -- closer to the 18mm height of the 4-perf 35mm frame used by anamorphic, rather than the 13mm height of the RED ONE sensor.
Click to expand...
3:2 > 4:3 instead 16:9 < 4:3 ratio for sensor optimization purposes including full 2:1 anamorphic lenses coverage.

No more 1.33x anamorphic glass hypothesis. :sorcerer:
 
Jannard said:
With Scarlet and EPIC, the way to upgrade the sensor is to upgrade the "brain". Each electronics package is "tuned" to go with each sensor. Epics have a much more complex electronics package and heat management system, hence the larger box. We expect the volume of EPICs to be much smaller in production... which adds a higher cost to manufacture factor.

Jim
Click to expand...

Thanks for clearing this up, Jim.
 
Pawel Achtel said:
David, 16mm MP will cover 30mm wide frame at 5k in Scope (1:2.40), longer Master Primes will cover full FF35 at 6k.

There may be other PL lenses that will cover full FF35.
Click to expand...

Hi Pawel,

Are you saying that from 18mm and longer, the Master Primes would cover the full FF35 at 6K?

Sounds like a lot of love (expensive love).

Are you guys realizing how the FF35 Scarlet (12'000$) is the perfect backup to the FF35 Epic.
It Also can be used as a B camera if you need the high frame rate only for A camera.

Emmanuel
 
Hi,

I am not the only person to beileve Master Primes will not cover FF35. Claudio Mirandea had trouble finding lenses to cover the Dalsa's larger sensor.

http://www.claudiomiranda.com/dalsa.html

Stephen

Edit It actually portholes within 31mm S35 image circle!

Emmanuel Cambier said:
Hi Pawel,

Are you saying that from 18mm and longer, the Master Primes would cover the full FF35 at 6K?

Sounds like a lot of love (expensive love).

Are you guys realizing how the FF35 Scarlet (12'000$) is the perfect backup to the FF35 Epic.
It Also can be used as a B camera if you need the high frame rate only for A camera.

Emmanuel
Click to expand...
 
Ok maybe this is obvious but maybe the S35 epic should be removed. Reduce the price of the FF35 Epic to about $31000 and I think most RED customers will be happy.

The customers who came from prosumer cameras to get a Red One should just get a FF35 Scarlet. The Red One owners who came from the professional camera world would get the Epics. Seems pretty simple to me. Just scrap the $28,000 Epic which should reduce manufacturing cost to maybe bring the FF35 Epic down to $31000.
 
Tom said:
FF35 makes the most sense to me.
Click to expand...

Hi Tom,

But it makes very little sense to me, when I have a budget to spend I want to use Cooke S4's end of story.

Stephen
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi,

I am not the only person to beileve Master Primes will not cover FF35. Claudio Mirandea had trouble finding lenses to cover the Dalsa's larger sensor.

http://www.claudiomiranda.com/dalsa.html

Stephen

Edit It actually portholes within 31mm S35 image circle!
Click to expand...

Stephen,

It means it will accomodate full 5k, 30mm wide frame in 2.40:1 aspect ratio on FF35. You can't get more on Epic S35.
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi Tom,

But it makes very little sense to me, when I have a budget to spend I want to use Cooke S4's end of story.

Stephen
Click to expand...

If you consider 13+ vs 11+ and 16bit vs 12bit it sort of makes sens don't you think?

Emmanuel
 
As we always hear - everything changes. Perhaps these are all feelers to see how the market reacts. FF35 frame is not an aspect ratio for theatrical release and I don't think you can compare it to 4-perf either - it's more of an IMAX aspect ratio. Perhaps it is also good for anamorphic, but anyone else going theatrical or HD, the S35 is much more practical.

As Jim mentioned, "We expect the volume of EPICs to be much smaller in production... which adds a higher cost to manufacture factor." My personal vote would be dump the FF35, put the resources and time into S35 and dedicate a Monstro and/or Monstro-like latitude to Epic S35.

Keep in mind that the Red industry and Red rental business would function much smoother if there was some sort of standardization. Imagine renting a camera to match your camera or several other cameras and nothing had the same frame size, latitude or frame speed options (this is something Red One does have going for it). Some will be disappointed, some will be left out of the rental market, and production companies that are considering Red for their pictures will be even more confused then they already are. Sure we can spend more time trying to educate, but I'd rather just shoot.
 
Nik Manning said:
Ok maybe this is obvious but maybe the S35 epic should be removed. Reduce the price of the FF35 Epic to about $31000 and I think most RED customers will be happy.

The customers who came from prosumer cameras to get a Red One should just get a FF35 Scarlet. The Red One owners who came from the professional camera world would get the Epics. Seems pretty simple to me. Just scrap the $28,000 Epic which should reduce manufacturing cost to maybe bring the FF35 Epic down to $31000.
Click to expand...

I agree with this 100%, even if they kept the price of the FF35 the same.
 
Emmanuel Cambier said:
Are you guys realizing how the FF35 Scarlet (12'000$) is the perfect backup to the FF35 Epic.
It Also can be used as a B camera if you need the high frame rate only for A camera. Emmanuel
Click to expand...

Yes, this is an excellent idea. $12k backup (or B cam) for a $35k Epic. However the data compression will be different between Scarlet/Epic which might make the option of spending $12k on an occassional camera unattractive. Guess it will depend on how cropped 4K/RC42 compression on the Scarlet compares with RCXXX on the Epic.

As for the S35 Epic, I can't see Jim (hope i'm wrong) releasing the Epic S35 at the same time as the RedOne upgrade.
And it'll depend how close together these events are and how much the R1 upgrade costs, to whether the Epic S35 is value or not. And then you've got to sell it 6 months later at probably a bargain at the same time the SS35 is being released.
Personally I think it's a bit of a lame duck.
Dave

ps:
planetearth said:
My personal vote would be dump the FF35, put the resources and time into S35 and dedicate a Monstro and/or Monstro-like latitude to Epic S35.
Click to expand...
I suggest they'll need the Monstro technology for 13+ stops.
Might as well beef up the sensor area/data capture to serve S35 & FF35.
either way it sounds like people want to merge both camera.
Jim...are you listening?
D
 
david farland said:
Yes, this is an excellent idea. $12k backup (or B cam) for a $35k Epic. However the data compression will be different between Scarlet/Epic which might make the option of spending $12k on an occassional camera unattractive. Guess it will depend on how cropped 4K/RC42 compression on the Scarlet compares with RCXXX on the Epic.

D
Click to expand...

From what I gathered from Jim and Ted, RedCode225 is not very differrent from RedCode 42 in terms of compression.
The higher number has more to do with higher framerates.

I'd like some light being shed on this.

Emmanuel
 
The thing is presently RC36 handles 4K/10+ stops/12bit.
Epic (4K/PL) SS35 will deliver 4K/13+stop/16bit.
Not sure how the 13+stop/16bit may affect this. Someone correct me but I thought 12bit linear data maxed out at 12stops...forget?
either way if you only use 2/3 of the 24MB/6K sensor, that's still double the data used in the present RedOne /RC36/4K setup.

As side from the Scarlet backup issue, higher bandwidth will be needed both for greater sensor areas as well as framerates.
Dave,
 
Well if you allow me, I would tend to agree with you, Mate… :)

Emmanuel
 
planetearth said:
Perhaps these are all feelers to see how the market reacts.
Click to expand...

Yeah, when Jarred posted that picture of all the RED employees throwing the party with the forums up on the projector, I thought, "now *THAT* is a company that gets excited about market research!".

Appearances to the contrary, I think this was something else. RED came up with the most outlandish, incredible ideas possible. Things that no one could believe will ever be possible, like FF35, 645, 617, and 2/3" RAW for $3K. Then announced them just to measure the feedback.

Jim was just trying to see if, even when faced with the most ambitious ideas imaginable, we would still find something to complain about.

Well, jokes over, Jim. Now can you tell us what you're *really* announcing? 2/3" DVCPRO for $10,000? 1/3" HDV for $4,000?
 
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