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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Proxie Editing & ONLINE

zip said:
Big T could you tell me what playback hardware you're using? We use the same process you do but get slightly stuttery playback and we're figuring it is because we are using the stock GeForce 8800GT that came with our Mac Pro (which has dual quad core 3.2ghz procs and 16 gigs of RAM...it's brand spanking new). Also our HD bandwidth is fine.

We're looking at getting a Kona card now to have smooth playback of 1080p ProRess422HQ footage.
Click to expand...

Hi Zip..

Yes the stutter problem we found is more when you try to play 16:9 (h) Proxies.
2:1 play fine here, But the 16:9's seem to jitter as well..sometimes.
One of my RED mates siad that he;s upgrade to 17 and that jitter is gone. Unsure.. but will be nice.
I'm finding that I'm shooting more in 2:1 anyway and cropping to 16:9 when I master out..
We pulled out our KONA card, found it was causing issues with playback.
We use just a standard MAC 8 core video card, nothing fancy.
One you render your chosen clips or edit out in the time line, the jitter disappears anyway. Or shoot 2:1 just shoot 2:1 or use the 1k proxies.
Most of what we all do only gets played in SD format anyway. HD is a myth with 90% of tv stations.
Most down convert your HD content to SD, then upres it back to HD size via MPEG2 smashed compression.... yuk.
 
Big T said:
REDSPACE is bit of a GRADE that RED has set to make onset monitors look better and for the people that don't grade anything... they are good for that, but it's really hard to push the REDSPACE quicktimes around, Not as good as REC709 Quicktime.
Click to expand...

hey BigT thanks for the explanation. If you set the camera to REC709 does this mean that the picture on the external monitors won't be as good as they would be in REDSPACE?
 
planetearth said:
Can you Batch change stuff shot on REDspace and convert to REC709 as well as command-option-A to convert all quicktime proxies? Or do you have to go through each one individually? Or does that not help or carry over to proxies once it has been shot on REDspace?
Click to expand...

Once it's shot in REC 709 or REDSPACE, thats were it stays..
You can swap them over in red alert, but grading in RED ALERT then becomes a chore and does not convert the same when you make new quicktimes.
Just shoot REC 709 if your wanting the best Proxie grading result.

External monitors for clients... Not a real big difference. Nothing that a client would see or worry about.
Remember, you can still adjust contrast, brightness and saturation on any monitor... just do that if your really worried.
 
Big T said:
This is a key test using just the proxie Quicktime the camera generates in FCP. Using a very shitty KEY tool.

Thanks for your feeback, very good.
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Big T,

What about the effects and filters. Nowadays there is no straight cut. I dont agree with you to edit with proxies. proxies can be used to test on set a straight cut to cut. But for edit I would strongly recommend to create SD PAL Apple ProRES 422 SQ and use this as your offline material.
 
Hi Big T, thanks for this thread!
Since i've never worked with a Red before and next week we'll shoot a commerical with and then edit it with FCP, do you capture the footage directly with the log & transfer window or do you use the Red software?
 
Big T said:
Hi Zip..
We pulled out our KONA card, found it was causing issues with playback.
We use just a standard MAC 8 core video card, nothing fancy.
Click to expand...

For me - this is a really important point Big T, as MANY places trying the proxy workflow are likely to have a Kona card installed, and if there is any sort of conflict that causes problem pulling out the Kona card really may not be an option.

Could you give some more details about what exactly the apparent conflict/issues are, and if you have logged them with Kona or if they have any advice on the matter?
 
Thanks Big T, for explaining this workflow.

I really like the simplicity and for most works I will implement it right away until they come with a native r3d solution, i just love it.

Now just a simple stupid question, and I think it is related with final cut and not so much with your workflow:

Let's say I edit the whole thing with 1k proxies, how easy is to change the sequence into the 2k or even 4 k version? I think there must be an easy way in final cut to look for the 2K "_H" version instead. Do you have any ideas?

thank you again,

Ivan
 
Just Make a new sequence, set settings to your desired 2k frame size.
Copy your IK edit into it.
Reconnect media (swapping M's for H's..
Done.

(but be aware, all your 1k edits in your other time lines will change as well.





muffinny said:
Thanks Big T, for explaining this workflow.

I really like the simplicity and for most works I will implement it right away until they come with a native r3d solution, i just love it.

Now just a simple stupid question, and I think it is related with final cut and not so much with your workflow:

Let's say I edit the whole thing with 1k proxies, how easy is to change the sequence into the 2k or even 4 k version? I think there must be an easy way in final cut to look for the 2K "_H" version instead. Do you have any ideas?

thank you again,

Ivan
Click to expand...
 
Big T,
Are you sticking with the Proxie workflow or using the new Native workflow?
Thanks for all your help with keeping it simple!
 
Glad you've found something that works for you Big T... However I've sat in edit bays and unless you have a severely technically adept editor, a lot of the workflow you're talking about is problematic. Also most editorial houses even if they've upgraded now to the latest 8 core machine tricked out, won't be willing to go in for the tricked out 16 core machine that will be able to handle Epic material next year.

On the technical side, there have been recent improvements into the final cut rendering architecture, however a number of effects still drop things down into 8 bit space and can cause banding, one of those things.

last thing just after looking through your various pieces...I can definatly always see the Red patina that I have been able to see shifted out of in other pieces. If everyone is happy in the end great, I've just had a lot of commercial producers say "but it looks muted and less tonally vibrant" lately.

But lastly, as is evidenced by your web page its about the talent, not the tech (although thered sure does kick the ass out of the F900) ...
 
Jeff Brue said:
However I've sat in edit bays and unless you have a severely technically adept editor, a lot of the workflow you're talking about is problematic.
Click to expand...

what problems have you encountered? Also, I've been editing basically as per BigT's suggestion fine on my laptop. I can't imagine your 8 cores will have any issue.
 
Well my personal favorites are some of the (known) bugs in regards to realtime effects in comparison to rendered effects and not having a true WSISWYG which can get you yelled at by the agency. The others are the moiring effects and color shifts because of Final Cut's cheaper (nearest neighbor) resizing algorithm.

My other favorites are the breed of clients that are now starting to expect in major commercial campaigns relativlely expansive compositing operations (not just a simple greeen screen).

Ultimately it's up to the editor to weigh the tool against the job. In most of the environments I've been in lately a proxy methodology has caused issues, and I don't want anyone to walk into a project and falling flat when a workflow doesn't work for them.
 
What do people think of Color in regards to this workflow?
 
Hi Jeff,
Unsure what problems your having. My kids cut RED proxies on there little home computers. They don't have any problems?.
We cut on laptops, 8 cores... various different machines, We change our sequence setting to 10 yuv for everything as well to not to have banding issues. 99% of my work is 8 bit anyway. When I go into Inferno or flame thats all we work and master in most of the time, 8 bit. I see banding in there also. Nothing for me to be concerned about though.
If your clients are that fussy, then go the DPX way id say. It's longer, slower, render intensive, but id say you can loose them in the complexity or the DARK science of RED they then wont understand.

For us it's very easy, fast and I get the results I'm personally looking for every single time, and my jobs are not small by any means
I haven't had a single complaint about anything we have shot, edited or onlined using the proxies.

I do agree though that the editor needs to get there head around a little more than just editing. But that's just experience.
Like I said, my kids are doing it fine on there imacs.



Jeff Brue said:
Well my personal favorites are some of the (known) bugs in regards to realtime effects in comparison to rendered effects and not having a true WSISWYG which can get you yelled at by the agency. The others are the moiring effects and color shifts because of Final Cut's cheaper (nearest neighbor) resizing algorithm.

My other favorites are the breed of clients that are now starting to expect in major commercial campaigns relativlely expansive compositing operations (not just a simple greeen screen).

Ultimately it's up to the editor to weigh the tool against the job. In most of the environments I've been in lately a proxy methodology has caused issues, and I don't want anyone to walk into a project and falling flat when a workflow doesn't work for them.
Click to expand...
 
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