Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Is cine glass about to be rendered obsolete?

Stephen Pruitt

Stephen Pruitt

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 14, 2007
Messages
3,309
Reaction score
40
Points
48
Website
www.thetreemotionpicture.com
Hi all. . .

Up to now, we've been using Nikon primes and zooms with our two REDs. However, I have been considering making the leap to 35mm cine glass for one of the two cameras. BUT, I'm concerned that cine glass is going to be rendered obsolete relatively shortly by developments such as the Birger lens mount (which should allow for perfect focus pulls throughout the zoom range) and/or the Epic, which might have a sensor too large to use with normal cine lenses (say, 65mm).

Is anyone else concerned that a lot of money in cine glass could turn out to be real loser?

Thanks much.

Stephen
 
If anything, PL is going to get more popular rather than obsolete. Prices may drop because of the competition, but not because of obsolescence. Release of Red PL glass should create a bit of competition.

I don't think larger formats would be attractive due to their higher costs and size. Can you imagine T1.3 lens for 65mm frame? Or pulling focus on the damn thing...I don't think so
shake_head.gif
 
good cine glass with good mechanics is probably the smartest investment you can make.

it's going to get pretty hairy out there with all these PL mount cameras .... and I sincerely doubt RED can make the primes as fast as folks will gobble them up ...
 
You might be right, David, but I'm a finance professor. . . and there is a famous phrase that goes like this. . . "buy on the rumor, sell on the news". . . if Epic's sensor is larger and/or the Birger DOES change things (allowing still zooms to pull focus as cleanly as PL mount cine zooms), then it will end up being too late for people who have already bought.

I was just wondering what the rest of you were thinking. . .

Thanks much.

Stephen
 
I don't think DPs working on professional productions with even modest budgets ($20K+/day) are going to be chomping at the bit to use still lenses.

Cine-style lenses are going to be around for a while. Good news is that I think come NAB time, there's going to be some new options though.
 
Why would you think Cine Style lenses would be going away? Is everyone going to convert their RED One cameras to Birger or other still mounts? Or return them all to RED to be plowed under in favor of an EPIC with a larger sensor (even though Jim said that the current 35 format lenses will still work on the EPIC, which means that the conjecture is wrong on its face)?

There are many, many image capture devices that will use 35mm Cine PL mount glass for many years to come. They might capture images to film stock or to an electronic sensor, but they will be around for quite some time. Guess what: if RED fell off the planet today (and I'm happy it's here), there would still be great need for PL mount lenses. Same goes with it around.
 
I agree...I personally use nikon primes because they are affordable and work for me but there is a reason you never see still lenses on any of the bigger budget union shoots. Cinema lenses will never be rendered obsolete, hopefully just get cheaper.
 
I cannot see cine-glass becoming obsolete in any near future.
We still get lenses that are decades old, in our shop for repair.
The demand for PL mount lenses has drastically increased since RED had it's debut.
Still lenses (currently) cannot match the quality or precision of professional PL mount cine-glass. When I see a RED camera with a Nikon 18-55mm shooting a feature film in 2018 "Batman Retired: Grey Knight" then I will consider cine-glass obsolete.
 
Matthew Duclos said:
When I see a RED camera with a Nikon 18-55mm shooting a feature film in 2018 "Batman Retired: Grey Knight" then I will consider cine-glass obsolete.
Click to expand...

8000 movies got submitted to Sundance this year and most weren't Batman. I'm not sure how many of those 8000 were shot with Cine lenses - but I bet it wasn't the majority.

Certainly Cine glass isn't going anywhere and demand may well increase. I think by proportion a lot more SLR glass will be sold for RED's and Scarlet's and EPIC's because people will probably rent Cine glass for bigger budget projects. Then they'll use the SLR glass on their smaller projects and everyday shooting.

If something like the Birger really does become well developed and rock solid then we may see new crews get used to them and use them on bigger productions in the coming years because it's the gear that they are most comfortable with.

But logic just dictates that PL glass will be the norm for many years to come on most bigger projects because that's what most crews are used to.

But bigger projects are a tiny fraction of "production". I predict both pl and slr will shoot more movies next year than they did this year.
 
Pragmatic VS Authentic

Pragmatic VS Authentic

Stephen Pruitt said:
Is anyone else concerned that a lot of money in cine glass could turn out to be real loser?
Click to expand...

Not at all. Cine glass is both a tool and investment in our profession and will continue to appreciate (market adjustment for release of RED lenses of course). The real question may be right tool for the job?

I have tested and shot lenses from the Arri 8R to the Canon 150-600 to Nikor micros on RED. There is a significant difference in image quality between MOST cine and SLR glass when shot on RED. Will an audience notice? No. Will they care? No.

Since we are in show business the pragmatist simply rents the right tool for the job.
The authentic filmmaker finds the best tool. In pursuit of the latter I continue to test lenses shot on RED all the way out to 15perf 70mm.

Underwater lens choices - choose either the 8R for underwater shooting ($32K) or a Zeiss 14 ($7K) or shoot a Canon/Nikon wide prime or zoom ($1K). The difference is astounding from big screen to HDTV. I made the authentic choice.

This link provides excellent lens comparison testing data. Cine primes VS latest SLR Nikon/Canon offerings. Their results are very interesting. My favorite is when an older Nikon lens (ED circa '70's) beats out the new glass by a WIDE MARGIN :-)

http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/
 
I'm a nikon fan and i up for birger but they dont compete in quality, at least not to the master primes. It's evident and maybe audiences can't tell the difference but i would bet $5000 they would feel the difference... Audiences rarely see the image like we do, they see the content, so they don't know how to tell the difference.. They are much, much better lenses in terms of clarity... Then again one of my favorite films is "Dancer in the dark" shot mostly on one of those old three chip prosumer cameras. But honestly there is in terms of quality, no comparison between still and good cinema lenses and not just in the mechanic side of things... However, people have different agendas and audiences have different wants so it will all grow in different directions no doubt... Doesn't mean you cant make a great film with red and still lenses... still will look like a million $$$s if done right.
 
Matthew Duclos said:
When I see a RED camera with a Nikon 18-55mm shooting a feature film in 2018 "Batman Retired: Grey Knight" then I will consider cine-glass obsolete.
Click to expand...


That's funny
rofl.gif
 
No, I see the complete reverse happening and Cine Glass becoming more popular than ever (which, fingers-crossed, will cause some price drops too!). The focus control required for shooting motion-pictures (particularly in larger formats like S35mm) is extremely demanding technically and requires complete manual control.

This is why the focus throw and distance scales on Cine lenses are so important. Can you get by with still lenses? Certainly. And the quality of still glass is superb. But the deciding factor is lens operation.
 
Grug said:
No, I see the complete reverse happening and Cine Glass becoming more popular than ever (which, fingers-crossed, will cause some price drops too!).
Click to expand...

Agreed.

I'm actually thinking that over the next few years as larger sensors and the whole still camera / motion camera merger transpires, we will have a lot more options. Pros and Prosumers alike are going to start looking for lenses that don't breath as much and that can hold focus and track much better than current still lenses. I'm really hoping that RED's upcoming "electronic lenses" for FF35 can provide this. Current Nikon, Canon, Sigma, etc.. do not, but I also don't think they will sit idle on that front for too long. Cameras like the D90 and 5D2 are only the beginning and I think RED's more serious competition over the next several years will come from the DSLR makers more so than from the big video companies like Sony and Panasonic.

Sure, lots of speculation there, but that's what I see coming.
 
Why are you guys so worried about obsolescence? Sometimes I can't believe the amount of fretting about these issues here on reduser!

Jim and RED are getting you excited about their future products which are months or years away. That doesn't mean what you (or anyone else) has now is junk or about to be junk or obsolete (especially your RED ONE).

RED made old glass desirable again, and greatly expanded the possible uses for cine lenses, as opposed to the broadcast HD world, which would have made cine glass obsolete if everyone was happy with 2/3" 3 chip for all cine production.

Notice that didn't happen?

Notice that the Zeiss T2.1's, which were loosing value because they did not work well on the P+S Mini/Pro-35 spiked in value when people realized the worked very well on the RED ONE?

Top quality lenses are still and always will be top quality. Medium quality equipment is still a bit of a compromise, and anything made for the consumer market (do-everything zoom lenses), made predominantly out of plastic will greatly compromised to a size/weight/price point and not repairable.

I've been through this kind of thing continually since I got started 15 years ago. In the end, the best is still the best. It's never cheap and never easily available. But it's always worth it.

*When have you ever regretted buying the best?*​

Just buy the best quality optics you can afford, and then relax.
 
I think the new up and coming generation will be bringing still lenses with them into larger productions..
The kids in film school/making their own films now.. use still lenses.
They will become comfortable with these lenses.

I see a shift in the next 3-6 years..

more and more privately funded indie flicks will be showing up.. and i bet you, they would rather spend 100.00 a day (or just buy) a set of zeiss ZF primes.. than rent master primes for 650 a day.

my 2 cents.

experience based on me being one of these indie flick kids
 
Joel Kaye said:
8000 movies got submitted to Sundance this year and most weren't Batman. I'm not sure how many of those 8000 were shot with Cine lenses - but I bet it wasn't the majority.
Click to expand...

I'm sure that's quite true, but the 8000 number is irrelevant. I would bet that the majority of the films accepted were shot with cine glass.

Besides, it's not even that expensive. You can rent a Standard Speed set for like $900 a week or less. Gets even cheaper if you're shooting a feature and renting for a month.

I own Nikons, but rent PLs when needed. Quality glass will never be obsolete.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top