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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Your opinion on my betrayal of Jim Jannard

Your opinion on my betrayal of Jim Jannard

  • Total voters
    43
Guilty ? why should you feel guilty?

2 totally different things.. red vs 5d ??

Maybe you chose the wrong product in the first place with redone ?

Though you say your shooting moving pictures? why go for a stills camera then with an added on video ability?

Shooting an Indie with H264.. think ya should change "guilty" to "mad"
 
Graeme Nattress said:
it's almost like HD VHS
Click to expand...

Ouch... :) (made me laugh).

I've yet to see any clips from Canon/Nikon that make me question my plans for RED. They are two entirely different tools.

These smaller (edit: "different," rather) cameras are not outfitted for cinematic use. Too many questions and amidst a first round of a serious attempt to compete (you could say the same for RED, but RED has been proven for cinematic use). That is to say, I doubt you'll see Peter Jackson or Soderbergh pulling beta 5DmII's to shoot with.

It is a relatively nice image, but it feels gimmicky to me so far. I like Canon and Nikon both for their still photography, and until RED announced their DSMC, I was considering a 5DmII myself. I'm curious what's coming from RED - not fanboy delight, but genuine interest from a company that's working hard to get it right.

I think if you shoot with the Canon you will be disappointed. 30fps should be the first deal breaker. However, it costs a lot less, no doubt, and that money could be put into your production, sure. Anticipate, though, that when you're on set or location and you're missing any handful of RED capabilities, the doubt of not having gotten a RED passing through your mind.

If you continue on this path, I hope I'm wrong and I do hope that your experience is a good one.

Best,

P
 
I think you really need to consider the single most important thing: RED is a digital cinema camera and the 5D is a digital still camera.

Now think about this for 2 seconds...

Being a digital still camera, it was developed from the bottom up to shoot STILL pictures. To attract a broader audience to DSLR's (and not because RED is taking away Canon's market share - they're not competing products), they've added a very VERY amateur way of capturing video. This is for people who will occasionally shoot a little video to browse through on their iPhoto library. Consider it as an added bonus to the digital SLR camera. Canon's words actually, that the ability to use Canon's lenses to shoot video is "simply an added bonus to a remarkable camera."

Once you go past this, the rest becomes obvious.

First big problem: the issue of aperture. Still cameras do not allow smooth transitions between f stops, so how are you going to achieve this in your shoot?

Second problem: Compressed HD video (it generates MPEG 4 files) versus Redcode RAW. If you're like me and enjoy the crispness of 4K originated HD, then you'll want to shoot yourself after looking at your MPEG 4 footage. And then you'll shoot yourself again while color correcting the piece.

Third problem: Frame rate: 30fps. Film is shot at 24fps so with the 5D you can shoot something that looks like video, only with good lenses.

If you wanna be an innovator or just grab more attention from being the first guy to shoot a feature with the Canon 5D, please do. And try to convince Canon to pay for the camera while you're at it.
 
The 5DMkII looks like a nice camera, especially for stills and the occasional video shot to post on the web. But if you are really thinking about buying a camera for a movie and you are considering a $3000 dollar camera versus a $30,000 Red package. Then I think you are misguided on several fronts.

First you can't compare any of these cameras to Red One, because Red is the only camera on the market delivering compressed raw directly from the camera. The advantages of compressed raw are essentially:
Economy: The footage is reasonable to store and transfer.
Flexabilty: The expectation of compressed raw is that many changes will be made to the image during post.
Quality: It comes close to the perceptual quality of the raw image off the sensor.

You won't get this from H.264, not by a long shot.

Secondly, even if you decided Red One is not for you and you can't wait for Scarlet, why on earth would you consider using a digital still camera to make a movie?!! Why not take a look at the Sony EX-1 or EX-3 and one of the new Letus adapters (or forget the adapter). That's a low cost system that is getting very good reviews from many DP's I know, particularly because the image has good dynamic range and low noise. There is no waiting list, the footage can be edited natively in FCP and you can mount stills glass. Lot's of good reasons why a filmmaker would choose that. Plus the resale value is often pretty good on these cameras, so when Red delivers something that you like better, you can take a small loss on the resale and buy from Red.

Frankly, I love my Red One and it ROIed several times now but... I still have another camera that is occasionally a better choice. Gotta keep food on the table.

Drooling over cameras and geeking out on technical details is the number 1 best possible method of not making actual movies.

Trust me... I know.

IBloom
 
i am wondering.. is GFY: go f yourself.. or good for you.

hmm...

let's compare the two camera's in filmmaking mode.
Resolution: red is more than 4 times the resolution of 5D video.
dynamic range: red has 11.3 stops of lat.. amazing raw control. 5d.. i don't know how it will be in video mode.
audio: 5d has no audio or well audio that sucks ass. red's audio is currently fixed.. but us poor guys (early adopters) have to wait for the free fix.
frames/second: red is 120fps at 2k.. and 30 in 4k. 5d is unmatchable.
exports: with red you can export dpx cineon files, motionjpegs, and r3d files. 5d exports a joke.

features:
5d has 22mp for doing timelapse and gives off an amazing quality. red sucks ass at timelapse.
5d is lighter and smaller.
5d is a lot cheaper.
red has a modular design built to shoot. not very ergo. but better than 5d.
5d is not modular, has a wide and flat design. not very ergo.
red has birger.. yes they are shipping. i got one. and you can rack focus wirelessly (very soon) 5d has no plans in that sense, but you do have a laptop and focusing is a bitch with it.
you can't use pl mount lenses with 5d.

I'm sorry.. 5d is no film, buddy.. yes it has the bokeh and the sensor size.. but it does not export a usable format to export for film or proper christies 4k/2k digital projection.. it does not have the aesthetics of film like redone does. I saw redone .. i projected redone on a 4k screen here in Abu Dhabi, it beats film for me. It is almost as fine as the vision 3 500t stocks. sharrrrp yet subtle. the control over the image is just astounding.. you wont have that with 5d. 5d is like a step up from one of the sony handheld cameras with a 35mm adapter. It looks a bit nice.. but not filmic... not like b16's redspace. no freggin way.. not in a million years.
 
Don't shoot a feature with a 5Dm2... If you're considering such, you are indeed misguided as Ian has said.

The cost of a RED One package is high and that's a lot of money that can be put into a feature. I would seriously consider renting a good camera and not buying the 5Dm2 for shooting a feature -- that's just dumb. That's like jumping out of an airplane with an 8' patio umbrella rather than a parachute... or something. bad analogy there.

Some questions to ask yourself about your feature...

What is your overall budget? Where does the camera fit in? What about lighting / grip, talent, locations.. The camera is just one detail and putting the camera first as a priority is a huge step on the road towards failure.
 
I love how everyone that has answered the poll so far as told our friend to Go Find yourself. Very spritual I would say
 
30fps...

30fps...

Why Canon would not have 24fps as an option seems very odd if they wanted to sell cameras.

If you try to convert 30fps to 24fps you need to drop 6 frames per second, and that will show up when the camera pans. If your movie is in locked down camera tableau then you might get away with it, something like "Le Jette (1961)".

The sound sync issue can be fixed with Magix by adjusting the length of the Wave files for each take by a small fraction, that makes a small pitch shift in some cases but not too much of an issue.

You do need to think if you are going out to 24fps or 23.976+fps since that makes for more sync problems.

With my system I would go to 24fps for a filmout and resample the audio shot double system at 48000 samples per second.

But a better answer would be to project video at 30fps and forget the frame rate conversion.

To edit the images with my system you would need to convert the canon videos to 16bit TIF frames, those could then be resized to 2K or as needed for the filmout or kept 1920x1080 for reconversion to video later.

The $20000 more the RED ONE (tm) would cost is not a small issue since that money can go to sets and actors etc., but if you want to make your money back using a RED ONE (tm) will give you a result that will probably have a better chance.

At anyrate, I would do a head and tail slate on each shot in order to be able to count the frames between the two slates to get the audio samples to relate to the image frames after frame rate conversion. Without two slates you cannot know if the image and audio lengths are the same.
 
Is that like how you get all the actors to move fast and speak fast, so when you slow the 30.00fps down to 24p it looks and sounds right?

Graeme
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Is that like how you get all the actors to move fast and speak fast, so when you slow the 30.00fps down to 24p it looks and sounds right?

Graeme
Click to expand...

Graeme, you probably mean me(?) I deleted the post after seeing that the one immediately preceding it had already covered the issue....

Going down to 24fps from 30fps is of course another issue, I assume you're joking here.... But the .1% audio pull up or pull down goes on all the time with film production.

And again, this is not an argument for using the Canon for a dramatic feature. That would seem to make no sense at all, unless one were doing it on a dare, with someone else's money.....
 
I'm being somewhat facetious. And yes, the audio is a relatively simple fix, but yet another gotcha to strike the unwary.

Graeme
 
You can convert it via motionsensitive retiming. I did it years ago with the first JVC HDV cam. We converted it 30p to 24p. Some shots worked, but most of the time it looked like crap.
Interlaced might be a bit better to convert because of more motion information. Still a very time consuming process. Not worth it!
Wait till 13th and all you worries will be gone.
 
MadamImAdam said:
I think that Jim Jannard and Red are likely responsible for lighting a fire under Canon's ass, from which the EOS 5D Mark II is soon to emerge. Without Mr. Jannard's pioneering and hugely risky efforts, Canon may not have un-crippled one of their DSLRs to give it the rudimentary motion-picture abilities a Canon DSLR obviously could have had years ago.

Also: I just asked for my Red One deposit back and am planning to buy a Canon 5D Mark II to shoot my next indie feature.

I was already questioning whether the big leap from HVX200 to Red One made sense for me. It was far from a done deal. But still I feel a bit guilty. Red Digital Cinema put the idea in my head that I could use awesome glass like, oh, the EF 85mm f1.2L without the unacceptable kluge of a 35mm adapter (don't get me started) and with a generously sized sensor capturing the light.

When I thought about the Red One, I thought, awesome glass/big sensor/awesome glass/big sensor/awesome glass/big sensor over and over until I was swimming in my own drool.

And now the Canon 5Dm2 comes along. Same glass. Bigger sensor. And the price is my Red One deposit plus $1000.

When I think about the 5Dm2, I picture a full-frame sensor with a big pile of my money next to it. I fully acknowledge that the additional details matter. A lot. But still, Redcode Etc. vs. Big Pile of Money is a tough choice.

The devil on my left shoulder is telling me to go for the money. The angel on my right is telling me not to give in. But I'm thinking I could buy the angel off with some of the money.

How guilty should I feel for planning to take advantage of the changes Jim Jannard forced onto the market while not giving Red a dime?
Click to expand...

Your serious, right? Wait till Scarlet/DSMC comes out or at least the updates on Nov.13, 2008. :love: You betray me with a kiss... Just Kidding
 
There is one scenario for which the Canon makes far more sense: making a movie now versus waiting for a new camera to come out on the mythical expectation that a new camera is going to solve all your artistic difficulties and result in a marketable movie

But of course if you make the movie now, there are better choices than the 5D, as already noted above. Even a cheap Canon camcorder would seem to make more sense if you're intent on buying rather than renting. The best glass in the world, and 35mm DOF, isn't going to overcome the disadvantages of the 5D.
 
Tom said:
Wait for Scarlet, noob.
Click to expand...


That says it all. :spidy:

If money was the problem, something like the Ikonoskop cam or the [future] Scarlet would be much better.

I'm not an expert, but the motion capabilities of the Canon sound inadequate for cinema:

- Only 30p. No 24p.
- Only 1080p.
- No RAW. No control over de-bayering, etc.
- No under\over-cranking.
- H.264 is a fine codec for delivery, but for acquisition? I doubt it. And I don't know whether you have control of h.264 settings with the Canon.
- It has skew.

Just my 2c.
 
Anyone pointed the camera at a resolution chart yet? To me, it looks soft for 1080p, but then again I'm used to how good RED 4k looks when properly downsampled to 2k.

Graeme
 
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