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Your opinion on my betrayal of Jim Jannard

Your opinion on my betrayal of Jim Jannard

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MadamImAdam

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I think that Jim Jannard and Red are likely responsible for lighting a fire under Canon's ass, from which the EOS 5D Mark II is soon to emerge. Without Mr. Jannard's pioneering and hugely risky efforts, Canon may not have un-crippled one of their DSLRs to give it the rudimentary motion-picture abilities a Canon DSLR obviously could have had years ago.

Also: I just asked for my Red One deposit back and am planning to buy a Canon 5D Mark II to shoot my next indie feature.

I was already questioning whether the big leap from HVX200 to Red One made sense for me. It was far from a done deal. But still I feel a bit guilty. Red Digital Cinema put the idea in my head that I could use awesome glass like, oh, the EF 85mm f1.2L without the unacceptable kluge of a 35mm adapter (don't get me started) and with a generously sized sensor capturing the light.

When I thought about the Red One, I thought, awesome glass/big sensor/awesome glass/big sensor/awesome glass/big sensor over and over until I was swimming in my own drool.

And now the Canon 5Dm2 comes along. Same glass. Bigger sensor. And the price is my Red One deposit plus $1000.

When I think about the 5Dm2, I picture a full-frame sensor with a big pile of my money next to it. I fully acknowledge that the additional details matter. A lot. But still, Redcode Etc. vs. Big Pile of Money is a tough choice.

The devil on my left shoulder is telling me to go for the money. The angel on my right is telling me not to give in. But I'm thinking I could buy the angel off with some of the money.

How guilty should I feel for planning to take advantage of the changes Jim Jannard forced onto the market while not giving Red a dime?
 
Will the 5D2 be a false economy though? How will you deal with the 30.00fps? What is the workflow for editing h.264 files?

I'm very keen to see what people can do with the Nikon D90 and Canon 5D2. I'm sure there will be some great content made with their video modes. However, call me fussy (call me biassed), but I don't like their image quality one little bit.

Graeme
 
Hi there.

I have only one thing to add: RAW vs H264; two completely different things that respectively spell pro and consumer.

Its like an iPod Touch vs. a Sony SXRD 4K projector, they'll both show you the same film, but are relatively incomparable, besides the content.

Besides that, there are many other aspects such as budget etc. that will make you choice a good one. As we know, each project should be assessed contextually, and the remaining 16.000 USD (for the body alone), might be well spent somewhere else if you're shooting an indie feature.
I guess what I'm saying is that if you're aware of the limits of a Canon setup, then go for it.

Anyhow, I don't expect to see RED go out of business anytime soon, so you'll still have the option of shooting a RED sequel, if all goes well :)

Good luck, just my two cents
 
The answer is, of course, buy a RED One instead :-)
 
I hear all your concerns. Money does not grow on trees. However, Come November 13th
another avenue may open that leads you to the promised land.....stay tuned dear reader.
 
I suspect you will feel like a slut on the 14th, having changed beds that often in so short a time. :) Seriously though, it will be a LONG time before Canon gets the tech where it really could be. Their engineers are great but the marketing people have castrated their flow of innovation. RED does not have that problem. They run on innovation and "nobody has done this yet" ideas. Obviously, only the RED folks can say what's coming out but I think the rest of us will be pleasantly surprised if not amazed at what they might be putting on the table.
 
What I want to know on the 5D2 is why the still image JPEGs the camera produces are oh-so-much nicer than the video when the JPEGs are scaled down to 1080p size.... To me, when the image quality differs so much between the still and video modes when the stills are scaled to match, that there's something funny going on.

On the workflow 30.00fps front, that really worries me as I get an awful lot of emails from people around the world on issues relating to the fps they shot their video camera at and what can they do about it afterwards. 29.97p causes the most issues. I can only see 30.00fps causing even more as it's going to cause audio-sync issues in your NLE when you match it with your audio for going out to the 29.97fps NTSC rate.
 
Two completely different beasts in my humble opinion.

If you plan on being taken seriously on a film shoot with pro actors then I would rather shoot with an HVX200 than a Canon 5D.
 
MadamImAdam said:
I think that Jim Jannard and Red are likely responsible for lighting a fire under Canon's ass, from which the EOS 5D Mark II is soon to emerge. Without Mr. Jannard's pioneering and hugely risky efforts, Canon may not have un-crippled one of their DSLRs to give it the rudimentary motion-picture abilities a Canon DSLR obviously could have had years ago.

Also: I just asked for my Red One deposit back and am planning to buy a Canon 5D Mark II to shoot my next indie feature.

I was already questioning whether the big leap from HVX200 to Red One made sense for me. It was far from a done deal. But still I feel a bit guilty. Red Digital Cinema put the idea in my head that I could use awesome glass like, oh, the EF 85mm f1.2L without the unacceptable kluge of a 35mm adapter (don't get me started) and with a generously sized sensor capturing the light.

When I thought about the Red One, I thought, awesome glass/big sensor/awesome glass/big sensor/awesome glass/big sensor over and over until I was swimming in my own drool.

And now the Canon 5Dm2 comes along. Same glass. Bigger sensor. And the price is my Red One deposit plus $1000.

When I think about the 5Dm2, I picture a full-frame sensor with a big pile of my money next to it. I fully acknowledge that the additional details matter. A lot. But still, Redcode Etc. vs. Big Pile of Money is a tough choice.

The devil on my left shoulder is telling me to go for the money. The angel on my right is telling me not to give in. But I'm thinking I could buy the angel off with some of the money.

How guilty should I feel for planning to take advantage of the changes Jim Jannard forced onto the market while not giving Red a dime?
Click to expand...

Why are you asking this here? Why aren't you on CANONuser.net asking their CEO?
 
i guess the 5d will have its place in moving picture shoots. a little. couldn't imagine it on more than 0.01% of the shoots I work on. imagine that things on a dolly. ridiculous.

no...the really big challenge to red has not emerged yet, but it will be a sensor made by someone like canon, in a proper BODY, a body for moving pictures, where camera movement is the goal.

a stills camera simply cannot achieve this in the moving pictures world. more bulk is actually a good thing to a point.

anyways, i too agree. nov. 13th will be a watershed moment. RED seems to understand many of the real needs of the FILM industry, where canon, etc. understand the needs of the prosumer industry.

interesting times lie ahead to be sure. don't buy that canon just yet.
 
Remember the Camera is just the capturing device, it's not the only key to a successfull result.

if you have only the budget for the Red body and can't pay for the rest, if you have to only one short film to shoot and if you just don't have much experience, don't feel ashamed to choose a more humble camera, save money for the production and focus on your structuring your film. This will make more the difference than the rest, believe me...

v*
 
Video and Sound

Video and Sound

Would be interesting to know how you would approach sync sound (i.e. recording separate sound, not on the camera) too.
 
Wow...the title of your thread is a little melodramatic methinks! I'm sure it's not going to keep JJ up at night if you buy a Canon :)
 
RED or Canon?

RED or Canon?

Well, the Canon movies impressed me, too. But then I became aware of the small letters at the end: 30 fps only? In movie mode more or less automatic only? No picture stabiliser in movie mode. H264 for editing (most propbably long GOP and not intraframe AVC)? And what about audio? A 3.5 mm mini connector? How to control the levels?

However, one advantage of the Canon camera is its low-light performance. In this area the actual RED One is rather disappointing. Even my small 2nd unit camcorder (Sony EX1) offers 800 ASA with 0 dB.

The best out of the ongoing competition: The companies are challenging each other. Nikon and Canon are at the very beginning. Their still departments have no experience in the motion picture arena. But for sure they will learn quick - offering better codecs, better manual modes, professional audio inputs. Let's wait and see. For sure I wouldn't buy one of these new Canon or Nikon movie makers right now!

And: Wait until November 13. Of course, RED is aware of the competitors. And they learned their lessons by bringing the RED One out of its childhood (audio and thermal issues, problems with the lens mount, codec troubles, just to name a few). So be prepared for some surprises very soon...

Cheers, Roland
 
i think canon is definitely a fantastic shooting device, great lenses, great sensor. it's limitation lies on the fixed 30fps, which for europe means also no possibility of syncing audio without pain in post.
i have just tried it in the photo shop, and looks great, but haven't tried to ingest the material and work with it. i have some fears about the viewfinder, i think it's not that easy to work in that way.
i'd say it's a very nice first step. i'll keep watching it closely.

but:
- as my red one has been working without a single problem every single day since it arrived, in March
- it paid its bill very quickly, and it's now putting money away for epic
- not to forget, it's beeng delivering stunning pictures and making everybody happy (myself in primis..)

for all these reasons i am now more than ready to put my money on everything comes out from the Red hat.
 
Your solution

Your solution

Firstly, I feel like if cost is really the defining factor, don't buy a RED. If your work is the defining factor, buy a RED.

I would strongly suggest going and renting a RED for a day, take it out and see what all the fuss is about. It's seriously ridiculous how good it is. It's not a super cheap solution, I'm well over 40grand in my RED purchase, but if you're trying to do pro stuff, there's no option anywhere close.

Cal
 
Remember, that lovely low light movie on the Canon was shot with a video shutter, like a 360 degree shutter, giving you a 1 stop improvement for "free". Same on video cameras, the shutter speed is generally a fully open shutter.... On the Canon video, the white balance is "off". Correct the white balance and the image quality drops again.

Yes, the h.264 appears to have a GOP structure. It breaks on the water scene - what a surprise, into macroblock. Look in the shadows, all blocky too. The overall image is smeary and over-sharpened to my eyes. Yes, lovely DOF, but it's almost like HD VHS with lovely DOF...
 
and,
i wouldn't have shouted out loudly my betrayal in the public square.
i think you'll have no problems having your money back, and put it wherever you imagine.
it's just a matter of style.
 
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