IDEA FOR 15mm UNIVERSAL MOUNT

[George A.]

Hi!

As you know, the RED Universal Mount (http://www.red.com/store/601002) fits only on 19mm rods. However, many people are using the 15mm rod system (100mm apart - Arri studio standard) with their REDs. Many of them cannot find a viable, alternative solution - there are really no universal mount equivalents for the 15mm rod system, at the same price range (the ET top mount and other products are much too expensive for this purpose). I know Jeff Kilgroe wanted to make one at the same price, but changed his mind.

I have an idea.

Why not use the cheap RED Universal Mount itself?... Someone can design two very simple "Shoe Spuds" (adapter sleeves) that can go into the Red Universal Mount and convert it for 15mm rod use. Of course, these adapter sleeves would have to be off-centered inside, but it should be very easy to do. I tried it and the 15mm rods at 100mm apart fit physically inside the Universal mount, but the rods are not perfectly centered; all we need are two off-centered shoe spuds inside to really lock it in the right position (after the correct measurements etc). Check the drawing I made.

I already wrote to Jim at Monstercine about this but so far no answer. His company already produces Shoe Spuds converting 19mm to 15mm (at $33), but they are centered. He would be the best choice to do this - it shouldn't be too hard to make them off-centered. If not, maybe someone else can do it and make a profit? I'd be the first to buy a few.

Many people are looking for a solution to this so I am positive this would be a success. What do you guys think?

 

[Perry Ho]

Hi Eastco!

That's great idea, but in Hong Kong most of the rental house did kind of concept last 10 years already.

Cheers

 

[Tim Sutherland]

I remember that I saw someone who already makes offset 15-19 sleeves, if I can find it I'll post.

 

[Paul Moss]

eastco....
I've been trying to get something like this for 6 months now but no one wants to know about it.
For all those people that have bought ET/Arri 15mm studio base & ET top side combo, you can't use any of your RED universal mounts for drives , batts, lens support on the ET setup.....its a pain in the butt....!
Someone please make a 15mm studio spaced RED style universal mount....OR some off set sleeve adapters so we can use REDs universal mount......
Paul

 

[Rich Schaefer]

Good idea Eastco...But

I think there is as issue between 15mm & 19mm studio rods. I believe they are not on the same centers. So if you wanted to run a follow focus (dual rod mount) matte box or lens bridge support the rods will be in the wrong place.

There was a great pix of this here on the forum. Let me try to find it.

Cheers,
Rich

 

[George A.]

Good idea Eastco...But

I think there is as issue between 15mm & 19mm studio rods. I believe they are not on the same centers. So if you wanted to run a follow focus (dual rod mount) matte box or lens bridge support the rods will be in the wrong place.

Rich

Hi Rich,

The idea is to use the universal mount with off-centered sleeves to mount the RED Cradle, Quick Plate etc for batteries, drives, or any other similar items (that don't care for super-precise positioning).

Besides perhaps a lens bridge support, this would have no effect on using a follow focus or matte-box since they really have nothing to do with the Universal Mount... and anyway one would use a native 15mm follow focus and matte-box on a 15mm rod system.

 

[Rich Schaefer]

Hi Eastco,

You are correct, it totaly would work for non spacing sensitive gear!

I just did some measuring and the centering is 5mm different (15mm vs. 19mm) but the interior measurement is identical. Someone could machine an eccentric adapter that would work for all situations.

I am hoping to get into a CNC mill early next year. Maybe I will build some then.

Here is 15mm center to center @ 100mm

Here is 19mm center to center @ 105mm

Here is the 15mm inside to inside @85mm

Here is the 19mm inside to inside ALSO 85mm!

Yes I am board today

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

100mm studio offset spec has the rods centered at 17.25mm right of optical center.

MonsterCine makes 19mm to 15mm sleeves. This solution would work, but obviously wouldn't be centered on a 15mm studio setup -- like richcam1 shows.

I have a 15mm offset version of the RED universal mount all ready for production, but I just can't get the numbers to work out. And it seems that at any one time, I only have two or three people interested. I'll take another look at it though, maybe with another couple design tweaks, I can get the costs down a bit.

There are current solutions that will work for some things, but won't fill the role of the universal mount completely. Zacuto has their QMount, which provides a centered 3/8 or adaptable center mount point. The Element Technica top mounts would work as a bridge mount, but are lacking some holes and are a bit big and beefy for a u-mount or bridge adapter use. If you need a centered 3/8" hole for lens support or something of that nature, it's possible to drill and tap a 3/8" hole on a RED universal mount at 17.25mm from the center. It would replace one of the 1/4" holes, but this doesn't answer any of the problems with other gear needing to be centered with the camera.

OK, guys I'll take one more look at my mount design and see what I can do. No promises though.

 

[Medavoym]

This is an awesome idea!

Anybody wants to jump in and design those inner sleeves?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Anybody wants to jump in and design those inner sleeves?

www.monstercine.com $33 each.

 

[George A.]

Hi Jeff,

Re-read my first post. I suggested Monstercine myself, but those sleeves need to be slightly re-designed. That would solve the problem for people wanting to use the Universal Mount on 15mm studio rod systems. Thanks!

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

But it's going to take more than just sleeves or shoe spuds to put the u-mount at the right offset. The guys at MonsterCine actually made these sleeves for use with RED top mounts, universal mounts, etc.. Someone who has 15mm accessories can use these sleeves to run their 15mm rods through the RED top mounts or baseplates and additional sleeves to mount 19mm gear. 15mm gear that clamps to individual rods can still be used. Any components like an Arri FF or mattebox arm that needs to bridge a pair of 15mm studio rods still obviously won't work.

Here is a diagram showing the proper alignment of 19mm and 15mm studio rods and how their positioning relates. The larger circles are obviously representative of 19mm rods, the smaller grey shaded circles are 15mm rods. Take special notice of the alignment on the left pair, which would be located at camera right. They overlap. Anyone who has used adapters like the Zacuto Jeep will know that the alignment isn't quite right on their adapter, but rods usually flex enough where this isn't a real issue. Adapters such as that have other issues, but that's another discussion.

If we were to ignore the horizontal offset of the 15mm studio spec and also ignore the proper vertical placement from optical center, we could theoretically make some kind of sleeve inserts to hold the proper 100mm rod spacing. they would need to be some kind of crescent-moon shape as illustrated here. How then, do we hold these sleeves in proper positioning without further modification to the universal mount and or rods?

Correct rod placement in relation to optical center is important. Proper spacing is necessary for many follow focus units, lens motors and other hardware. If we ignore the offset (which is also of paramount importance to the 15mm studio spec), but factor in vertical placement, we see that once again, we are out of bounds on what is possible with 19mm adapter sleeves.

IMO, the best solution here is a completely new 15mm studio bridge mount that will give everyone properly spaced mounting holes so that hardware designed to mount centered with the camera on 19mm rods, can still be mounted along the center axis and also provide support for 15mm equipment that is designed to fit the studio offset specification -- mattebox support arms, follow focus units, etc..

I have a design ready to go to production. I just need to see if I can tweak a few things (related to production, not really to the design of the mount). If I can get the cost down, I'll go for it. But for now, it does not make sense for me to pursue it. In reality the demand for these is quite low. I will take another look at it this week.

For anyone standardizing on RED or other newer digital cinema system like the Phantom HD, etc.. I strongly advocate the shift to the 19mm Arriflex system. Offset rods have no real place on newer digital systems that don't need to support film loads and other mechanical hardware. The majority of the world has adopted the 19mm spec, but a few areas, like USA west coast / Hollywood remain stubborn 15mm hold-outs. It's a tough call, but as a RED owner you have to ask yourself what hardware do you need to support off of 15mm and why? And consider the actual cost of conversion to a 19mm system. Arri FF3, FF4, most of their Mattebox systems, etc.. can all be adapted to 19mm spec through the purchase of new mounting blocks and support hardware. I realize that my words are blasphemous to many LA rental houses and studios who feel deadlocked into the 15mm standard... Oh well.

 

[Paul Moss]

Jeff,
I agree that the only real way to go is for someone to build a 15mm studio RED style universal mount. A sleeve probably won't cut it......
As for the 15mm studio system its got solid grounds worldwide, go to any rental house in OZ or Europe for that matter and you'll find 15mm studio is the standard and i think Hollywood is pretty big on it too.....:sarcasm:
When i recieved my ARRI MB 20II i was suprised that the fixed mounting system on the MB was for 15mm lightweight, i know the MB is made for 'HD' style cameras, but 15mm is really a worldwide standard.
Jeff you need to make your 15mm ST universal mount, i think you'll find more people will want one than you expect....
I'm getting so damn frustrated with it all, that i'm about to knock up a dodgy version for myself just so i can get by......
Good info lets hope someone does something about it...
Cheers
Paul

 

[J Clark]

Hi!

As you know, the RED Universal Mount (http://www.red.com/store/601002) fits only on 19mm rods. However, many people are using the 15mm rod system (100mm apart - Arri studio standard) with their REDs. Many of them cannot find a viable, alternative solution - there are really no universal mount equivalents for the 15mm rod system, at the same price range (the ET top mount and other products are much too expensive for this purpose). I know Jeff Kilgroe wanted to make one at the same price, but changed his mind.

I have an idea.

Why not use the cheap RED Universal Mount itself?... Someone can design two very simple "Shoe Spuds" (adapter sleeves) that can go into the Red Universal Mount and convert it for 15mm rod use. Of course, these adapter sleeves would have to be off-centered inside, but it should be very easy to do. I tried it and the 15mm rods at 100mm apart fit physically inside the Universal mount, but the rods are not perfectly centered; all we need are two off-centered shoe spuds inside to really lock it in the right position (after the correct measurements etc). Check the drawing I made.

I already wrote to Jim at Monstercine about this but so far no answer. His company already produces Shoe Spuds converting 19mm to 15mm (at $33), but they are centered. He would be the best choice to do this - it shouldn't be too hard to make them off-centered. If not, maybe someone else can do it and make a profit? I'd be the first to buy a few.

Many people are looking for a solution to this so I am positive this would be a success. What do you guys think?

I responded to your request and agree it's good idea - sorry if it didn't reach you. We considered making them 8 months ago when we started Monstercine, but to produce them in quantities we need to be sure there's real demand. If you and others want to pre-order them, we'd be happy to modify our insert design and make a batch of 100 pieces. Anyone who's interested, please send me an email directly at jim at monstercine dot com, and If we get enough interest we'll go for it.

But as Jeff has mentioned, they only really work for centered tools and do not take into account the offsets, so a new amount design is ideal. Lets talk Jeff and see if we can work out a design that solves the issues you've both pointed out.

 

[Paul Moss]

Jim,
I would be really interested in about 4 of these 15mmST universal mounts if you were to make them, the issue is how much would each cost....?
Its one of those things, ET really needed to make them when they developed there ET top side combo, and there 15mmST accessories.
I'm stuck right now with an ET 15mmST system and no way of using it efficiently.......
i hope you guys can come up with an option.....quickly.......
Cheers
Paul

PS i have sent you an email

 

[George A.]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the answer!

I would be interested in at least 4 of them as well. Hopefully you decide to go forward with the idea!

 

[Medavoym]

Jim,

I would be interested in a set of offset 15mm sleeves for each of the three Universal Mounts I have.

 

[Rich Schaefer]

ET also has a great diagram of the issue!

http://www.elementtechnica.com/images/faq_plate_large.jpg

Cheers,
Rich

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Lets talk Jeff and see if we can work out a design that solves the issues you've both pointed out.

I've got something cooking here... I'll get back to you on monday about it as I should have some better answers about one aspect of it by then.

 

[steve weiss]

Multi purpose mount

Multi purpose mount

I'm not quite sure exactly what you are looking for but our Zacuto Q-Mount and it's many uses may be the ticket. It can be a lens support for any size rods, it can offset in any direction for weird crazy lenses, it can hold arms and more, see pic.