Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Where's the Red -> FCP -> output guidebook?

Hello,

I've been on quite a travel tear as of late, but trying to stay local to focus a bit more on more training presentations in LA and more online training tools.

The original mythbusters is still valid as a workflow, but as many of you know much has changed in the camera that effects the performance in post.

Where months ago on the fastest Mac tower we were able to do 2k QT ref movie editing in FCP quite easily, we have been in a mode where most have been relegated to using the 1k QT ref movies to cut - (which are quite fine for most long form editorial, feature films, TV movies, etc. where there is a lot of footage, and no desire to transcode - there is a big benefit to dragging the files into a timeline and cutting)

I spent some time in London a few weeks back, with a group cutting a RED shot horror movie all with the 1k (_M) ref movies and they were loving it.

As many of you know, if that realtime edit mode is not enough quality, or you need true "greenline" performance for editing in FCP, then you take your 2k (_H) movies and render them to ProRes, and cut with those instead, you have the option of using RedRushes or the Log and Transfer plugin to to this.


And - There is some good news recently with the latest Quicktime codec that takes those renders from the 2k (_H) movies and renders them to ProRes at Apx 3:1 again on a single Mac Tower, so it's manageable for both short form and long form projects.

This new codec gets us very, very close to realtime performance again with the 2k QT ref movies, to the point on an Octo Mac that if you are OK turning the dropped frame report on playback message off, you can edit with the 2k files again instead of just the 1k files (1k on most Mac systems should be a no dropped frame experience)

If that doesn't work for you - them move to the ProRes route, take the processing step and use those files.

Hope that helps a bit.

+ Ted
 
Meryem, very good point about Videos being less than ideal to reference back to. But whomever were to do this needs to take the time and make it easy enough for a complete newbie to understand so there would have to be a good interface section. Also, extremely clear writing throughout with clear step paths or otherwise a lot of those Scarlet users won't have their needs addressed.

Ted, thanks for the post. Could you please explain a bit more clearly about the 2k APX 3:1 vs. 2k QT ref for me? I haven't touched any of these yet so it is a little hard for me to figure out.

If I understand correctly, when using the latest R1 builds' footage on a new 8-core mad you won't get realtime playback. Right? But you can render all ofyour footage out to ProRes in an automated batch sort of way using L&T or RedRushes (which I know nothing about yet). Then those ProRes 2k files are good enough to render out from and will edit and color correct in Color in realtime flawlessly?

Is that right or is there an additional step I missed in the translation to my R3D-inexperienced brain? (Sorry but I have to ask for the middle-school explanation).
 
Ted, thanks for weighing in here. As mentioned, at the base level, editing with quicktime proxies is so straightforward and easy, that it actually is quicker than P2 in FCP. But where people are running into trouble (and again, this is in regards to those with little to no experience with RED files and workflow) is that once you start doing several video tracks with speed changes, loads of effects, etc. it gets more complicated, especially if you are doing a conform. I think it's the preprocessing and conform processes that will really throw people for a loop if they don't understand RAW and don't have a lot of experience getting the most out of an image.

Certainly transcoding to ProRes simplifies a lot of this. You now have files that are in an easy editing format and you can do with them whatever you please. And if the quality from the QT reference movies is enough for your deliverables, then realistically you can do what Big T does with their commercial work which is use a combo of Red Alert to optimize the one light, and then regenerate QT reference movies to use in FCP as your final deliverable or to move to effects world.

There are very easy, straightforward workflows out there. I have said that from the beginning and was one of my points at NAB. It's only when those workflows don't fit your needs that things can get more complex and you have to establish a good workflow for what it is you are trying to do. Personally, I'm a fanatic about getting the cleanest, best processed image that I can. So sometimes the QT files are not enough for me, even for HD deliverable. So there are additional steps needed for me to get to where I'm going.

I also think there are people who have a knack for color and have worked with RAW digital photography before. So they may be finding this a bit smoother workflow than others. They know how to tweak curves, minimize noise, and get the most dynamic range out of RED images. That's a skill that can be learned, but not necessarily mastered unless you really have an eye for it and have a lot of experience.

One other idea I have had is to make my company a case study. Small production/post production company that in addition to putting the Red into the hands of other productions, is also beginning to incorporate it into some of our own production work. But it's a boutique shop with limited resources, trying to get by with off the shelf technology and some determination. I'm not a master DP, but Red has made me passionate about picking up a camera again. I enjoy thinking in terms of lenses and what they can do to tell a story. I love thinking about lighting and how Reds imager reacts to it. So in a sense, I'm like a lot of you who have decided to take the journey down the Red road, and perhaps that's the best way to approach a training guide/resource is to do this as a case study. We do commercials, corporate, music video, and some feature work. But the budgets are smaller than you will find in LA, New York and some other hotspots. Again, this may be something that people can relate to, and want to get some realworld perspective on.

As has been the case with other cameras (DVX100 and HV200) there will be ways to learn about it. It's just taking time to get a lot of things sorted out. We have to give RED the benefit of the doubt that they are working constantly to improve the camera and are writing their own new chapters everyday. They are still a relatively small company too. There's only so much you can do unless you add a lot more people to staff, which increases overhead, which inevitably increases the prices of the product(s).

So, I'll think about this some more and listen to feedback to see where we can take this.
 
I really don't know about the RAW stuff, but I was under the impression that there was a lot we can do before the "normal" stuff I am used to doing for my DVCPRO HD footage. I would love to learn about the differences, cause I thought it was more than just being able to push it a heck of a lot further.

So what exactly do you guys mean by "first light"? Is this a first "light" correction before you lose the ability to correct a RAW file? As in before you create something like a ProRes? (which is not RAW?) This would greatly help as I try to understand the intricacies differences and benefits about having RAW files. I am sorry about asking actual workflow questions here but this is much easier of a place for me to learn because of how you guys are laying it out.
 
A first light is meant to bring you into the realm of a well exposed image that you can then export to other file formats such as ProRes, uncompressed QT, etc. In other words, you get it as close as you can to a good image without getting into deep color correction and or stylizing. You just want a good solid image.

Truly RAW workflows will allow you to manipulate the image's metadata at any point in the process while working with the native RAW files, in this case R3D. This is what we may get with Adobe Premiere/After Effects and eventually FCP/Color when it is fully implemented.
 
Ok... so when you get the RAW R3D into something like REDCINE (watched the videos) I saw in the representation of the image, it wasn't big enough but it seemed like you could push the be-jesus out of the image. How much play do you have? And do you guys end up shooting really low light stuff sometimes knowing you can push it to where you need it "first light" :) to match other shots within a sequence? Then get to tweak it as if they were normal matching shots without noise and other potential issues that might be hard to deal with when CC'ing the ProRes or whatever other files you rendered?

Thank you for the help Steve!
 
I could really benefit from a guide like Steve described. I'm trying to get on a film as the picture editor that's shooting with the RED but I've never worked with one.

Please somebody write this.
 
All great thoughts from reading through this thread. You have hit on the challenge with of a young camera company that has it's hands full and is driving hard into the future. We are not a post production company, but we did realize that we need to make a significant effort into having logical, sensible post production for the various needs of those shooting RED. We created some very good utilities to help that along, and made them available to everyone, regardless of if you owned a RED or not. They don't do everything, but they do a lot.

We connected with the industry to offer tools for edit and DI and integrated native support into a couple as a starting point (Apple & Assimilate) We are in the next phase of opening up that support with the SDK - which will mature over time, as companies start to work and show what they are offering using the SDK, and where we need to head with it.

Regarding more training and workflow understanding, I'm a big proponent of that, and if we were a post company as our main gig, we would do this on our own in a very robust way, we do some with our development partners as you've seen, and considering all the workflows and variants out there, we try and hit the highlights and most common workflows for feature editing and TV.

Note all the 3rd party books for teaching on FCP, Avid, The Adobe tools, 3D software, etc. - it would be great if someone wanted to tackle a "Post Production with RED" as a book and dedicated web resource, with quick overviews of various post options and in depth "deep dive" for post production supervisors on RED projects that need to make key decisions.

I talk with movies, TV and commercials all the time that have heard wrong info about post with RED and are nervous, and once we lay out some simple options on how to get their depending on what their deliverables are, they get it and are moving in the right direction.

I'm working on a comparison chart of 35mm and 16mm costs for post as compared to RED today - if others want to share their discoveries with me on what they find, I'd be happy to look at it and incorporate their findings as well, just send them to me directly at ted@red.com

Thanks

+ Ted
 
Does anyone have experience in creating a wiki site? I think this would be the most best, most accessible way to organize the content, as well as a place to document and implement any new developments in the workflow.

I'm sure there are more people clamoring for this than just those who've posed in this thread. I know the second I get my hands on a RED I'll be doing my part to contribute to this... if there is a place to contribute.
 
RED should know best

RED should know best

Seems to me the responsible party for the explanation on how things work should be the people who designed the equipment. Did RED have no idea on how the R3D files would be processed by any type of contemporary editing system? Red Cine, Red Alert, Red rushes, were all, as I understand it, created by RED. I think RED would be the most knowledgeable source of instructions on how their file format should be handled and should be able to explain how workflow and final output can best be accomplished. I own a RED one and the hardest thing for me is to convince a lot of my clients to use RED based on the inordinate amount of rumors circulating in the industry about the difficulty of working with RED footage. I feel that comes from a great many people in post production not having clearly detailed workflow scenarios and having to literally crate them themselves by trial and error. Even Final Cut, which has officially announced that RED footage can be used, has no detailed instruction how that is accomplished. The seventy seven page RED-One operations guide offers a two page explanation on Red-Alert and a ¾ page explanation of Red Cine. Please, an official workflow manual from the creators of the R3D file.
 
RMTOP said:
Seems to me the responsible party for the explanation on how things work should be the people who designed the equipment. Did RED have no idea on how the R3D files would be processed by any type of contemporary editing system? Red Cine, Red Alert, Red rushes, were all, as I understand it, created by RED. I think RED would be the most knowledgeable source of instructions on how their file format should be handled and should be able to explain how workflow and final output can best be accomplished. I own a RED one and the hardest thing for me is to convince a lot of my clients to use RED based on the inordinate amount of rumors circulating in the industry about the difficulty of working with RED footage. I feel that comes from a great many people in post production not having clearly detailed workflow scenarios and having to literally crate them themselves by trial and error. Even Final Cut, which has officially announced that RED footage can be used, has no detailed instruction how that is accomplished. The seventy seven page RED-One operations guide offers a two page explanation on Red-Alert and a ¾ page explanation of Red Cine. Please, an official workflow manual from the creators of the R3D file.
Click to expand...

Understood. The problem to a certain extent is that there are various workflows for all kinds of productions. That's why I thought case studies might be interesting because they would allow you to take a specific situation and attach a good workflow to it. I've posted the first case study and we'll see what the feedback is like. It will be great if Red chimes in on these but they do have their hands full with a lot of stuff right now.

We'd all like a workflow that is as easy as P2, but the big difference is Redcode Raw. While incredibly flexible, it also introduces many possibilities for posting it. That leads to confusion if you don't have a plan in place or if tools you need are not available or out of your price range.

The intent of creating this "guide" is to take some of the confusion out of the equation and get more producers/post supervisors on board and get Red fully implemented in the HD world.
 
I agree that it should come from RED. And it would only benefit them. Keep it as a series of pages on RED.com and/or .pdf files to print. Simple as that. The easier you make it for us the more cameras you will sell.

I wonder if they are not jumping on this right away because production hasn't caught up so there is no actual need for this right now. Then again we might see this very soon as the new line up comes out.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top