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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Best LCD grading monitor on the planet

While I can't discuss the technology behind the DPX's performance at this point I can certainly discuss contrast ratio specifications.

Yes, consumer-land is full of marketing twists to make things seem better than they really are. Few fields are as guilty of this as LCDs. What's going on is akin to car manufacturers quoting 150 miles per gallon with the fine print stating that this is on a 45 degree incline, with bicycle tires, on an ice-covered road, drafting a truck three feet in front, the wind behind you and only one cylinder working. Neat trick, but it isn't real and nobody is going to drive a car that way.


Contrast ratio: A measurement that describes the relative luminance between the black and white points of a monitor (or projector, etc.). Saying that the contrast ratio is 10 means that black is ten times darker than whatever white happens to be set to.

The ratio can be different depending on how the measurements are taken.

Sequential contrast:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
1- Calibrate the monitor as it will be used.
2- Send a full frame of white to the monitor
3- Measure white
4- Now switch to black
5- Measure black
6- Contrast ratio = white luminance / black luminance

Typical sequential ratios:
BVM CRT: 15,000 to 1
DPX LCD: 15,000 to 1
Typical LCD: 500~1,000 to 1

Simultaneous contrast:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
1- Calibrate the monitor as it will be used.
2- Send a black and white checkerboard pattern to monitor
3- Measure white square near center
4- Measure black square near center
5- Contrast ratio = white luminance / black luminance

Typical simultaneous ratios:
BVM CRT: 280 to 1 (primarily due to flare in glass)
DPX LCD: 15,000 to 1
Typical LCD: 500~1,000 to 1


Consumer contrast:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
1- Don't calibrate the monitor as it will be used in the real world
2- Crank up the brightness, backlight and anything you can to make it super-bright
3- Send white to the monitor
4- Measure white
5- Now crank everything down as far as it will go. Make it super-dark to the point that the image might not even be usable.
6- Send it black
7- Measure black
8- Contrast ratio = white luminance / black luminance

Typical simultaneous ratios:
Moderate marketing spin: 3,000 to 1
The really good marketing guys: 30,000 to 1
The "our customers are stupid" guys: 1,000,000 to 1


The intent behind Sequential contrast is to determine the absolute best performance for a fully calibrated monitor in proper operating conditions. It is relevant for such things as titles over black or very dark scenery, where deep dark blacks are a necessity.

Simultaneous contrast is there to give you an idea of how well the contrast performance holds-up as varied image content occupies different portions of the screen. CRTs are variable contrast devices. As content becomes more complex contrast is reduced. This can be looked as as MTF (Modulation Trasfer Function) just as you might with camera lenses.

Consumer contrast figures are there to deceive and market based on the idea that consumers don't understand any of this and they can be easily impressed by big names quoting big numbers. Not much can be said about this other than I hope that some degree of regulation is applied to the industry in order to protect consumers at some point.


-Martin
 
The Editor's Lounge did a shootout of various monitors but Cinetal wasn't in attendance.
http://tinyurl.com/5lv6ql - Cow thread
http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/Avid-L2/message/40768 - Avid L2 thread

IMO... the price/performance of the mid-end monitors right now isn't really compelling. None of them do real black (contrast ratio of the Cinetal is 1000:1 I was told). And they don't look significantly better than the cheaper stuff. Meanwhile, the monitor will depreciate like crazy when better stuff comes out.
If eCinema's competitors figure out their tricks then we'd have more LCDs doing real black. FED and OLED are also on the horizon (though the FED folks haven't gotten financing for a factory yet... might be vapourware even though the technology looks good).

Larger monitors are also coming out (e.g. 40"). Clients will likely be more impressed by a 40" monitor than a smaller monitor, whereas they probably won't spot a difference between some of these mid-range monitors and a $4K monitor.

I saw the JVC 24", Cinetal, BVM-L230 (and 40" BVM-L), Barco RHDM at NAB. Not the greatest place to look at monitors, but there wasn't a striking difference between any of them (except that the Barco flickers slightly because of the backlight scanning). I also saw a 40" model by eCinema (FX40??).
From a business perspective, there are successful post houses out there with crappy monitoring. They've spent five figures for a BVM CRT but they didn't even bother to get proper lighting (i.e. not tungsten) or arrange the lighting so that the light doesn't cause glare on the face of the monitor.
So to me, it seems that your best business decision would be to either:
A- Go cheap and get the JVC 24" DT and make the surround bright. And get nice furniture.
B- Get a large monitor and make the surround bright to hide the black level.
C- Get a monitor that does good blacks. Or wait until there are more choices in that area.
The difference between the DPX and a CRT isn't subtle (the DPX doesn't flare); though you might need to point that out to people; the difference is easier to spot than the difference between 4K and 2K. I can't tell you if the monitor might have obscure flaws in certain situations... get a demo unit and check for yourself.
 
Martin Euredjian said:
In the case of the Dreamcolor display, as Wes has already clarified, it is, in fact, an 8 bit display with FRC-based dithering. We always jump on new technology, and this was no different. We contacted LG --who manufacture the panel for HP-- and quickly learned that it wasn't a real 10 bit panel but rather an 8 bit with built-in FRC. At that point we lost interest, as dithering and FRC can introduce innacuracies and artifacts that have no place in professional critical evaluation of images.
Click to expand...

Martin, are you saying that HP is blatantly lying in their literature and client communications when they specifically say that there is no dithering and no FRC in their 10bit panel? Here's a quote from page 5 of THIS FAQ on the HP website:

"A full 30bit pixel is sent from the DreamColor Engine to be displayed on the HP 30-bit LCD panel with no dithering or frame rate control."

This is a specific and opposite claim to the one you are making. I would be grateful for any clarification at all.

Regards,

John T.
 
And then... silence. Any reason you haven't responded to Johns question, Martin?
 
He could be busy running his company (and any other number of reasons). If you'd like an answer, you could try emailing him through the email listed on their website.

http://www.ecinemasystems.com/contact.html
 
lunacie said:
"A full 30bit pixel is sent from the DreamColor Engine to be displayed on the HP 30-bit LCD panel with no dithering or frame rate control."
Click to expand...

I know next to nothing about this, but let me show one possible reinterpretation of this statement to clarify the complexity of this question:

We send a 30-bit pixel value from the DreamColor Engine to the 30-bit LCD panel hardware, which does its own dithering and displays on a panel physically capable of showing a 24-bit color.

Again, I don't know this, I'm merely pointing out that the concept is not incompatible with the statement...
 
Yep I think that whatever-bit value is sent to whatever engine but LCD can only physicaly diplays 8 bits. Same old story

There is some older Eizo panel where they said that it "works" with 10 bit colors, but works DOESN'T mean displays ... yep marketing
 
lunacie said:
Martin, are you saying that HP is blatantly lying in their literature and client communications when they specifically say that there is no dithering and no FRC in their 10bit panel? Here's a quote from page 5 of THIS FAQ on the HP website:

"A full 30bit pixel is sent from the DreamColor Engine to be displayed on the HP 30-bit LCD panel with no dithering or frame rate control."

This is a specific and opposite claim to the one you are making. I would be grateful for any clarification at all.

Regards,

John T.
Click to expand...

Martin... care to comment?

regards

Michael
 
If in fact that's true about the HP display (I've never used one, so I'll take Martin's word until proven otherwise), it's similar to what TV Logic does. They use an 8 bit display and are dithering the 10 bit input. It looks good, but as Martin says having that full 10 bit path is the way to go because it removes some variables.

I look forward to the day when we have displays that are able to produce true black with precise color accuracy, easy calibration, and are affordable. I wish I could afford the E-Cinemas or these other high end monitors but it's not a reality right now.
 
Here's an excerpt from the HP Dreamcolor user manual (my emphasis) :

10 bits/color LCD Module
As noted earlier, the LCD module in the LP2480zx monitor provides a 10 bits/color (30 bits/pixel) input,
with true 10-bit drivers within the LCD itself. This means that each primary (red, green, and blue) may
be controlled over 1,024 steps (input codes 0 to 1023) from the black level to the white (peak luminance
for that color). This results in over 1.07 billion separate colors available within the display’s gamut, versus
approximately 16.7 million for a conventional 8 bits/color display.
 
Apparently the cheaper HP dreamcolor display (not the 2480zx) has an 8-bit panel.

I suppose somebody could test the 2480zx to see if it has an 8-bit or 10-bit panel??? (Though you'd have to figure out how to drive the panel at 10 bits.)
 
GlennChan said:
Apparently the cheaper HP dreamcolor display (not the 2480zx) has an 8-bit panel.
Click to expand...

And which cheaper display would that be? The 2480zx is the only Dreamcolor display available right now.

IMO, HP should be hyping up their RGB backlight system on this display. It's great! The display is 10bits/channel internally and combined with their proprietary backlight system, they're driving that 8bit LG panel to new heights.

Seriously, for a $2400 display, I'm quite impressed. I was skeptical at first of HP's marketing and when the panel was confirmed to be an 8bit LG... But after seeing the monitor with my own eyes, I'm really liking it. I only wish it came in a 30" model! All in due time, I suppose.

Anyway, it's hands down the best 24" LCD display on the market under $10K. The upcoming models from EIZO, eCinema and others look like they will be much better, but at a much, much higher price tag.

For actual color grading, I don't think I would choose a 24" display of any type. I would go for a DLP projector or perhaps a large plasma screen like the Panasonic pro series w/ SDI option.
 
This guy:
http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF05a/382087-382087-64283-72270-444767-3648442.html

apparently it's not marketed under dreamcolor anymore.

Anyway, it's hands down the best 24" LCD display on the market under $10K. The upcoming models from EIZO, eCinema and others look like they will be much better, but at a much, much higher price tag.
Click to expand...
I'd disagree with that. You can get a good 1920x1080/1200 HD-SDI monitor for <$4k. If you need to work with VTRs then it's a no brainer to get a HD-SDI monitor.

And HD-SDI is what I'd prefer so there's nothing wacky going on with video overlays and such. The wide gamut capability is somewhat of a bad thing for most users if you work solely with a Rec. 709 video workflow.
In the under $10k category, I believe you can get 40" 10-bit monitors with HD-SDI (e.g. ecinema fx40 is $6k now).

2- Somehow, HP got people to be way more excited about this monitor than other similar products.
If you look at computer monitors (e.g. no SDI input), you used to have lots of good choices in CRTs. And they were relatively cheaper (granted, CRTs are heavy!! and somewhat soft + hide noise and image defects).
 
Yes, plenty of great options in the <$10K range. But I was saying as far as 24" LCD monitors go. IMO, of the 22~24" LCD monitors on the market now, even compared to "studio" monitors with HD-SDI input, this DreamColor display looks really good. To me, it look a lot better than the LCD broadcast monitors from Panasonic, which are a big favorite for people looking in the <$5K range.

Personally, for color grading, I would choose something with an HD-SDI input just because of software / hardware support and compatibility.
 
I'm confused about the HP monitor. Is it an 8 bit panel or 10 bit? If it's just handling the 10 bit signal, processing it internally, and displaying on an 8-bit panel, well, my TV Logic does that too. If it's going to be 10 bit, it's got to be the whole way from 10 bit input to 10 bit display. Maybe I'm missing something here.
 
Heh, I guess the mystery continues?
 
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