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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Where's the Red -> FCP -> output guidebook?

C

Conrad H

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After reading so many frustrated guys over the past many months talking about how bad and hard it is to work with Red & FCP, you would think there should be a Workflow Guide by now. Points to ponder:

1. I've watched the Ted / Mythbusters promo video. Slam bam right into FCP. Maybe it's not that easy? What comes next? Is it really a mythbuster if all these guys keep having so much trouble? Seems to me like the myth maybe lives.

2. If somebody has put together a guide already, why is it not the top posting in the Apple Workflow message listing as a reference?

3. Sure we have a lot of guys trying to post "helpful" responses like, "you gotta offline/online" , "then use a bunch of other programs" Scratch, Monkey something, etc. This busts no myth about Red being hard to work with.

4. Maybe somebody in the know can translate the hardcore workflow into a step by step that us newbies can figure out, like "Red for FCP Dummies". I would even pay, although it'll be a month or two before I get my Red One.

5. Hey, I'm dropping a load of money on this camera, I'd like to feel like the myth got busted, not me.

Just say'in... looking forward to a good experience... I hope.
 
Download some files and test, It took me a month or two in Jan-Feb to really get the hang of the workflow.

The only way is to TEST TEST TEST. After you test, you can write the Guide you are looking for, Most of us are busy doing it, and a lot of the answers you are looking for are our Bread and Butter...
 
Must use brain, ack, ack

Must use brain, ack, ack

Different workflows offer various advantages and disadvantages so IMHO there is not a "one size fits all" workflow for RedOne footage. The typical scenario includes a particular client need that ends up dictating the workflow. Issues of time, complexity, quality and most often budget end up driving the choice.

My advice is to reach out to a consultant who can guide you to the best post path for your particular situation. Unfortunately the producers, director and other stakeholders may insist on things that are mutually exclusive and or budgetary issues. IMHO it is not so much the complexity or difficulty of RedOne workflows (its really pretty easy once you grasp a few simple concepts) its the challenge of introducing anything new into the mix. The bottom line is that humans will often choose familiar over better because it makes them feel more comfortable. The rub is usually cultural, not technical.
 
Using brain to find info... here.

Using brain to find info... here.

Unfortunately in my area, the editing and post places are just getting their feet wet with Red workflow, and I would represent one of the few individuals on the bleeding edge.

As such, some specific starting points for "off-Hollywood" types like me in the middle of the Great White North would be appreciated more than non-answers.

I can appreciate that there is a lot of information on this site... just look at the Birger post with hundreds of pages of replies. I have Canon 2.8 70-200mm lens, and other nice glass. I just want to know if it's shipping, do I really have to trawl through all those mostly irrelevant messages to discover if I can actually buy one at this point?

My point being, I figured Red users, as generous as they appear to be with their expertise, may have a distilled 'nuts and bolts' guide of "good", "better", "best" workflows at this point.
 
Blair is right. There really are different workflows for different projects. Best bet is to ask specific questions, such as:

I'm going to be editing a :30 car commercial shot at 4K, 16x9, 23.98 and our deliverable will be 1080P. In this commercial spot there will be lots of speed changes, and we will do all color correction/effects inside Final Cut Pro. What is the best workflow for this type of project.

The reason to get specific is because this workflow will be far different from cutting a feature with all straight cuts.

Hope this helps.
 
Features can be straight cuts are as complex as anything you have ever seen. I have seen the timelines from films like Lord of the Rings, Spiderman 1-3, etc. :)

Michael
 
MichaelP said:
Features can be straight cuts are as complex as anything you have ever seen. I have seen the timelines from films like Lord of the Rings, Spiderman 1-3, etc. :)

Michael
Click to expand...

Exactly. I have edited features that had a lot of stuff going on in the timeline. That's why this is so hard to "write the guidebook". Add to the complexity that the tools are changing at a fast pace, and the camera's firmware is always being improved, sometimes with a big impact on post workflow, it is a daunting task to get this all down into a comprehensive white paper.

FXPHD.com has had some good classes for getting up and running with Red workflow.
 
Everybody has different needs. We were going all the way to film-out, without Scratch, which meant Glue Tools, Crimson, Color, Cinespace. It was a massive learning experience. Seems easy now, but it was not easy for a group of people to teach this to themselves.

I think the best solution is to wait for CS4 with the Plug-In, or was for the next Final Cut Studio. It should become very, very easy when they are up and running.
 
RED editing is flexible but ways to edit are finite so there should be a manual.

It could be a PDF which you can print out and put into a binder so new pages could be added as things change. It could be run as a subscription service.

This lack of documentation is a huge drawback in an otherwise well run company with an excellent product. Having to figure out how to use REDCINE, RED ALERT, REDRUSHES and the LOG & TRANSFER software is a daunting task especially for those unfamiliar with motion picture post production workflows and color grading.

As many, many people here know, trying to find the answer to a question by searching these forums can take hours of your time. And asking questions often results in jargon laden answers which do nothing more than confuse. A classic example of the fact that those who are very familiar with a subject are sometimes the worst people to answer questions because they don't realize how much others don't know.

I'm sure many would be RED buyers have held off because of the lack of good, clear, step by step graphic information on the various RED workflow options. Yes there are a few videos out there but they take it for granted you understand the basics (ie: the REDCINE how-to vids) and so are simply useless to those outside of the film post world.

I'd pay a couple of hundred bucks for good RED post production guide and I'm sure others would too. As more and more cameras come on the market the demand for a post manual will only increase. I'm sure someone could make a buck or two writing such a document.
 
Great respo

Great respo

stevesherrick I like your style. Thanks for the response.

Sam Roberts, I think you are seeing my point. I am a definite expert in my own are of a health field, I can also do a lot of computer programming, and am finishing a short film in FCP with a lot of animated elements in Lightwave, using Shake, Motion, After Effects, and on and on it goes. I am certainly amenable to learning more stuff, but I'd rather spend my little remaining time getting something practical done instead of sifting this board for specks of gold here and there. Hence a guidebook from gurus who know how to get things done.

So, looking at the potential wealth on this site, I can see probably 24 guys & gals who could each write a "short" chapter as Sam has suggested, and many of us lower down the learning curve/food chain would happily pay for the service. I'd pay up to $300 for it, since I think the thing would be probably on par, or better, than an FxPHD course (which is also very good).

By the way, the FxPHD courses have been good at introducing many concepts, but still seem to be missing the mark a little. Perhaps I should take this round's courses. Maybe I've just answered the original question...
 
im having the same problem in my area. i uasally shoot out of town or on film.

i just shot something and did a bunch of highspeed shots. when i viewed the edit online, the off speed stuff looked really bad. i think the editor did the SPEEDS in fcp, and looked like it! and thats how it aired!!!!!!
and
then when it came to doing the final color correct (which i uasally do in a biger city) at the local edit house i came in and started talking to them like in a film transfer, he turned and looked at me with a blank face. so i just learned COLOR this weekend so i can do it myself, or teach them.

i think they think the red is another video camera and its not its more like film! yay!!!!!
 
Maybe we should start a poll to see how many people need this in-depth white paper. I certainly can't write it by myself, but I could probably pull together the resources to do it. Seems to me what many people are after is an indie workflow. I think Scratch and other high end workflows are doing okay and have the resources to implement custom pipelines that blow through RED footage pretty easily. They also have proper calibration in place for monitoring, not to mention experienced colorists and video engineers who can get every last ounce of quality from the R3D files.

So what I think is missing is perhaps a guide for everyone else. The small production companies who have bought this camera to step up the quality of their productions but have discovered that working with R3D and RAW is a bit tougher than they expected. They don't have a lot of money to throw at the problems, so they need to use tools that are accessible to them. They also may not have the experience to process the footage properly, which of course can be a big roadblock in RED workflow.

So, people want details. They want to know what hardware, software, storage, etc is necessary and then they want to know how to use it all, with very specific guidelines/instructions. It would look similar to this in terms of chapters.

1. How does Red One record images
2. Red Workspaces (Redlog, Rec 709, Redspace)
3. Data Management
4. Redcine
5. Red Alert
6. Red Rushes
7. Workflows (step by step process)
I. 720P/1080P Commercials and Music Videos
II. 720/1080P Documentary
III. 720/1080P Narrative
IV. 2K Commercials and Music videos
etc., etc. etc. etc
8. Conforming (Crimson, Monkey, etc.)
9. How to approach grading RED footage, Understanding Redcode RAW
10. Scripting, automating, increasing your Red efficiency

These are of course just samples, but just want to gauge what people want. We've come a long way since the workflow event at NAB, but I know some people are still disappointed with what's available for the indie guys. So, if the information that is available on this forum is not enough, or is to scattered, please post your thoughts on specific topics you would want covered in a white paper/guide.
 
I would love to get something like that. And I agree that an "Indie Guide" is where you'll find the most demand. However that means two things. There are those that never edited and want to learn how it is done so they can do it themselves, and on the other hand there are those that edit, but never edited with FCP. However both of these should be treated as if they never worked with R3D files cause, well they've only been around for a short time so there is no harm on that. Anyway, to sum up my point, if you make a guide for an audience that knows nothing about editing, FCP or R3D files then you can't lose. It is not a small project... every sentence needs to be written carefully so that there is nothing missing. Nothing can be assumed as known by the audience... so it is a BIG guide... and a BIG project.

Personally, I want I'd be stoked with a guide that spoke to me... :) I know the principles behind all of the things I want to learn how to do in FCP with R3D files, but I haven't seen FCP since I first tried to teach myself hot to edit years ago and I've never worked with R3D files yet.

I want to see a video showing me how to:
_ pick all the hardware needed to cut a feature
_ set up a 24fps project
_ use of over and under cranked footage
_ do some basic transitions
_ do color correct and grade in Color
_ output a 1080p Blue-Ray or 2K for film out

And I guess would love to have a section/chapter covering all of those other programs I hear about all the time, REDCINE, REDALERT, etc... I have no clue what they are... so I want to get started with FCP and Color if that's possible and understand what else is out there and what their functions, Pros and Cons are.
 
Steve,

As usual, you've hit the nail on the head. I've been fortunate to have had a few kind folks generous enough to offer help and guidance during my first paying job with the camera, but something like this is sorely needed. Having so many options is great, but when one is faced with a deadline, all they need to know is "how do I get from point A to point B" that works well for a given situation. That kind of help would be invaluable. It's akin to using a Garmin/Magellan/TomTom for directions. Sure, they'll get you there, but you might have to go a very circuitous route through heavy traffic. Sometimes it's best to stop and ask the guy at the gas station the quickest route. Since he knows the area, he's able to tell you to "turn here" and makes for a much less waste of time. "Red Workflow for Dummies" will surely be published by someone.
 
Also, I guess I need to learn the basic differences between video and RAW to understand what my color correction and grading will be like. I am used to just tweaking but I guess there might be a few steps to perform before hand?

I guess it all becomes more a bit more complicated since I am used to having DVCPRO HD footage and outputting to DVD, QTs and now also Blue Ray, but I haven't doe that yet. I know that with Scarlet there will be hordes of HVX/EX1 guys like me jumping over to R3D files so this guide will only get exponentially more popular.

In the end there are a ton of you guys that work with good healthy budgets. But I guess I agree that the big majority of people asking for a guide is those that get into FCP because it is the most cost effective way to deal with such heavy files.

BTW, when I mentioned "pick all the hardware needed to cut a feature" that certainly includes setting up a production monitor like the Panasonic 17" properly.
 
What your asking for is what people like me do for features and TV drama on a regular basis.

Producing a traditional printed book would not keep up with the fast development, so it would have to be an online wiki based resource.

To put a comprehensive wiki together with video takes time and resoruces, so... the big question who would be up to pay something for this, and if so how much?

Also consider would the money be better spent hiring an experienced RED consultant. This could range from a quick Q&A on the phone to having someone on set for the duration of the shoot it it's a major production.

Now for smaller productions to keep costs down an option that I provide is the consultancy to setup the RED workflow covering pre-production, interviewing/selection and training of staff, on set procedures, data management, deliverables for editorial (Avid/FCP), VFX and DI. I am on set for first few days of the shoot to make sure everything is working then provide support for the remainder of the shoot. What I do here could not be achieved via a purely online or printed resource.
 
Excellent post, thanks for the perspective.

digitalsafari@mac.com said:
Producing a traditional printed book would not keep up with the fast development, so it would have to be an online wiki based resource.
Click to expand...

I guess this is it..! Easy to keep up with the changes AND easy for me to check on it! Just charge a subscription and an initial fee to join instead of purchasing a booklet. This is certainly what I am looking for and it would be extremely popular with even smaller budgeted projects like mine, where I also have more time to (and have to) learn the stuff.

I was also expecting a set of Sticky threads, but it also makes excellent sense that at this point things are so volatile that the Read Team and Moderators haven't put anything up. Might this be the reason why there isn't a single Sticky on such a popular section of the forum?
 
I don't buy the "things are changing too fast" argument against a printed guide. The guide can easily be updated by having it as PDF pages, downloaded from the author, printed out and placed in a binder as addendums.

Also there are people using the camera and/or doing their own cutting who do not live in places where they can easily get help from other RED users or hire a consultant. And as good as this site is, like I said in my other post, using it as a research tool is very time consuming.

But more importantly, often those making the buy or rent decisions RED-wise are not camera people and editors but rather Producers and Directors who may already have a limited technical knowledge. To be able to show them a printed hard copy document clearly written in layman's language with graphical illustrations and screen captures would go a long way in soothing any fears they have about RED post.

I would guess that most people here have spent their whole careers learning new technologies and being on the dark side of Geekiness they probably enjoyed doing so. But RED is so new and different that even the most experienced among us have had to spend too much time researching, learning by trial and error and testing on our own when a lot of that time could have been saved with a good, clearly written and illustrated Post Guide.

All any of us want to do is get on to the really great part of the job- using the tools to be creative. Anything that holds us back or slows us down in pursuit of that goal needs to be streamlined.
 
Dark side? This is the good side man! :)

I totally agree with you Sam.

I can't understand why there isn't a FC Sticky. When there isn't person out there that writes a good thread there should be a Mod that gets assigned to writing one up. I guess this is quite daunting and those that could do it are too busy raking in cash.

Printing additional pages works just as well... then again you could print a web-page too I guess to pdf or html is besides the point so long as it is downloadable in some sort of way. That's what I care about, getting the new info as soon as it is up and not having to wait to get something mailed to me. Which is all besides the point cause what are the chances it wouldn't be available in that way. What really would matter is that it were updated often... and the way to bill would be in some sort of membership, say you pay for a year and you get to download all the new updates for that year... or something like that. I'll leave that to whomever wants my money to decide.
 
stevesherrick said:
1. How does Red One record images
2. Red Workspaces (Redlog, Rec 709, Redspace)
3. Data Management
4. Redcine
5. Red Alert
6. Red Rushes
7. Workflows (step by step process)
I. 720P/1080P Commercials and Music Videos
II. 720/1080P Documentary
III. 720/1080P Narrative
IV. 2K Commercials and Music videos
etc., etc. etc. etc
8. Conforming (Crimson, Monkey, etc.)
9. How to approach grading RED footage, Understanding Redcode RAW
10. Scripting, automating, increasing your Red efficiency
Click to expand...

Wow, Steve, what a fantastic outline...that's it, in a nutshell.

What would make sense is a subscriber-based website, entirely independent of reduser, that covers only this material and is updated regularly. Reduser is hard to filter for workflow discussions, and there is a lot of contradictory info and opinion about workflow issues.

The products that fxphd offer contain very good information, but if you are just looking for updated material only--if you already have some of the basics down--then it becomes expensive to re-up a subscription for a body of mostly repeated material, and the video format is not convenient to reference after the fact, when you are looking for some little scrap of material that you know will make your life easier but can't remember where in the course you heard it, scrolling through a bundle of video is a pain.

With all of the SCARLETs about to be unleashed onto the world, this would be a moneymaker. I know that's not your intent, you're all about helping people get the knowledge that they need. But the post tools are changing so fast, it is hard to keep up. And it would be worth it to me to have someone create a central clearinghouse like this, where I could save a bundle of time filtering the noise here....
 
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