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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Feature request. New focusing paradigm.

Shane Betts

Shane Betts

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Didn't know where to post this, DSMC, Epic or Red One so I've put it under off-topic.

I've brought this up before but here's more on the subject. The technology exists for one of the Red family to utilize DSLR autofocusing glass to provide a very powerful tool for drama production. This wouldn't work for run & gun guys OK, it's a drama thing. Rather than stills lenses causing difficulties wedding to follow focus units, here's what I see as the future.

Check out what Sony are currently offering on their domestic video cams. http://www.sony.com.au/dis/category.jsp?id=30395#hdhandycam Scroll down to "Spot Focus" in the centre box.

Now before anyone rolls their eyes, just stop and think about what I'm proposing here.

Given the right, specifically designed tools, running on a laptop, the ability to preset zones during blocking/rehearsals, applying bezier curves to control the speed of focus racks, we have the prospect of the focus puller sitting at a laptop and telling the camera to "focus on zone 2 now" by hitting return as the actor steps into frame. No problems if the actor or the grip misses a mark, the camera is autofocusing on the predetermined zone and shape, not the distance. And even if they miss their zone completely, the focus puller simply taps them on the screen and the camera finds them and tracks them.

I know the current DSLRs all focus in the pentaprism, so they can't focus with the mirror up. But, just as Olympus did with metering on the OM2, surely the focus sensors could be mounted to read off the front of the CMOS to provide "live" autofocus.

I think the potential is huge. Imagine every take being perfectly sharp, 100% of the time and all with low cost, high performance stills lenses shooting with short DoF on Vistavision sized sensors. Just another way that tools like RED can reduce the cost of film making at the same time as increasing the control.
 
Good focus pulling also involves timing, and riding the depth of field.

That said, your proposed system would be helpful in critical focus situations-wide open, long lens, fast moving subject.

And it could also be something for sit-down interviews.

Call it the Lightranger 2 :)
 
Hey Bettsy,
I just worked with some of Hollywood's best camera people for some four months on a tentpole feature. Yes, I am a huge Macintosh/computer person too...I love to hack ideas together for production optimization. And yes, we even had some MoCo on set for a day. *BUT* To cut it out simple: you cannot "sample" the art of cinematography via any form of digital means. As long as you are not shooting a robot in front of the camera maybe even if you are, you need a human's touch and judgement for the best of cinema. This isn't a little me saying so... chew on this a bit: is our every day experience in out lives mechanical? Do we live by precision, numbers and pre-plotted curves? Do you sit down in exactly the same manner every time you sit down? Is your own smile perfectly symmetrical? Probably not... we are organic...

Noted that a television news set with talking heads might be a good place for zone focusing... some already do have preprogrammed cameras.

Why would you want to bring any of the Red cameras to stoop that low?

~Sarah
 
To me this sounds like an excellent idea. Another tool in the box. Having computer assisted focus doesn't rule out using focus puller with some manual magic if preferred.
 
There was something like this from Panavision, but manually controlled, that means, an assistant continuously points on the focal plane on a touchscreen. Don`t remember the name of that thing.
 
As someone who's shot and pulled focus and worked in post I think you must take into consideration the amount of creative stuff done to your footage on computers using bezier curves. The argument that using a computer isn't or can't be creative seems a little dated to me.

I agree with all those who say it's a feel thing. That's why we have rehearsals. And yes, it's just one of the tools for the job. Sometimes it wouldn't work and sometimes it would take a little longer to set up than a conventional FF but for a great number of takes it would be a time saving. And yes, many focus pullers would hate it and not want to use it or change their technology. There were a lot of editors who would never leave their Steenbecks and Moviolas too.

Sure, the rate at which pulls are performed is a creative decision but this system wouldn't take that out of the FP's hands, just give them another tool. And yes, DSLR's hunt and there would be shots where it would be a nightmare and you'd have to shut it off but other times it would be a godsend IMHO. And give it over to the geniuses at RED and I feel sure the hunting would be sorted out as time went by.

Bear in mind that many of the tools discussed on these boards are used by low budget indies struggling for a budget. These guys would welcome a smaller crew, cheaper (stills) glass and a faster shoot. Those on studio shoots can ignore this kind of technology and that's cool.

The (major) art of cinematography is, in my opinion, in lighting and framing and that can never be replicated by machine (God help us) but I remember when pro stills guys first hit autofocus cameras there was a lot of fuss about how it would mean that anybody could shoot and the profession was doomed but, as it turned out, talent cannot be programmed. It just took one yes/no question out of the loop and allowed the artists to create.
 
BTW, to clarify, I am not for a moment suggesting the camera or the computer should choose when and on what to focus.

Each focus point, when to make the pull, and the timing/rate of the pull (duration of pull, ease in, ease out), would be set and logged by the FP during blocking and tested for reliability and feel during rehearsal. During the take the FP would still be in control, telling the program when to 'take' focus point 2, 3 etc.

Of all the points raised I would see hunting the biggest issue.
 
Prophetic words...

Prophetic words...

Daniel Reichenbach said:
Everybody is dreaming about the perfect focus tool, it is right in your eyes and hands...
Click to expand...

Ever dreamed of pulling focus on a person on a swing (in motion that is) ?
Ever dreamed of pulling focus on a person on a swing while the camera dollyes-in?
Ever dreamed of pulling focus on a person on a swing while the camera dollyes-in on a 50mm lens at wide open aperture (say 1.4)?
Ever dreamed of holding focus on marks of a string?

Or any suspended of a string object while rocking back and forth (add dolly-in or out too) On a water sprinkler? Smoke?
Ever dreamed of being able to hold in focus anything the lens can record?

Ever dreamed what that image would look like?
What a nice "story-telling" instrument for the director to create his story-board....

Well.. so did I back in 1997... and got to SEE this kind of images in 2002-2003 when I finished the instrument. I used to call it perfect focus. Nothing is perfect though, because only a perfect entity could create perfect (but is the nearest I could think of).

Let me know if you are interested in trying it out and see those kind of images part of your next story:
http://www.care2.com/c2c/photos/view/741898547/868859207/772214171.html
 
bettsy said:
The (major) art of cinematography is, in my opinion, in lighting and framing and that can never be replicated by machine (God help us) but I remember when pro stills guys first hit autofocus cameras there was a lot of fuss about how it would mean that anybody could shoot and the profession was doomed but, as it turned out, talent cannot be programmed. It just took one yes/no question out of the loop and allowed the artists to create.
Click to expand...

Lighting and framing... of course.

Focus and camera moves...I beg to differ because I am and have been a "pro-gal" in photography and videography. My best still photography work has remained in "manual" mode, goes for focus, aperature, shutter speeds... I've shot ENG/EFP handheld and would NEVER trust an autofocus, or "repeat focus" mechanism for the sheer fact that the world in front of my lens was rarely that spot-on repeatable. Need to have that fine control for adjustment and have my mind 100% ready for prediction...no time to wait and see if the focus lands where it is supposed to--then fix it!

I have not been one of those talented ACs on a huge feature production, nor would I try to be. If I ever thought that mechanizing a focus move was a good idea I have since taken it all back. I have "seen the light" and had the awe-inspiring experience of watching follow-focus magic revealed to my own eyes. I got to watch the camera and focus moves while next to the camera, then the result(s) while at the video village.. and later projected on a big screen via filmout. It's not just about finding the marks and setting them.. it's about what is done in the prediction and adjustments during the shot. You cannot wait for the computer or a bezier curve to reveal itself or expect the action itself to follow your bezier curve. And what if it's slightly off? Do you blow the shot and do it all over again? Seems to me a good AC will get you at least something usable every time... then you can decide if your time/budget allows for another take to make it even more primo.

Of course, my argument is of no use to you if you are suggesting shooting @F16 and are just glad to get most of the shot in focus. :clown2:

I guess all I'm trying to say is that a good AC is far more valuable than a new camera feature.

~Sarah
 
LilRed said:
Lighting and framing... of course.

My best still photography work has remained in "manual" mode, goes for focus, aperature, shutter speeds...

~Sarah
Click to expand...

Mine too, and on film to boot. Yet, here we are on the RED forum. Things change...

BTW, just to really attract some heat, I believe that, in an ideal world, focus pulling would come under editorial. The timing of focus pulls are an editing decision, just as colouring should be the DP's decision. But hey, call me crazy:)
 
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