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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Camera comparison chart

Wow...lots of good info on that chart, thanks for that. I only wish they had included more information. I was saddened to see them leave off the fact the the red can use SLR glass as well.
 
I love comparison charts.
Puts things so much into perspective.

So by the looks of this, RED wins the over all bang for buck award hands down.
Phantom wins the best digital image and slow motion award. (even though it only says 8.5 stops, you can work it like 12 stops + Crap workflow)
Film wins the best latitude award. (expensive & slow film+processing workflow)
FAST Work flow award still goes to tape based cameras but who the hell wants to shoot 2/3" video.

In short... The day RED can get PHANTOMS speed, Films Latitude, tape or even P2's fast easy workflow, nothing will come near it, EVER!

So so close boys, soooooooooo so close.

I'm so sure that the next big step for RED, all this will be answered.

I'm already really happy with our RED ONE's. but looking forward to the RED cream so I can put it on my RED pudding.
 
Hey Big T, I'll take a little issue with the "crap workflow" statement about Phantom. Using software like GlueTolls' Phantom Component, the workflow couldn't be easier. The original RAW .CINE files created by the cameras are read directly by GlueTools. What's more, GlueTools operates invisibly in the background, simply allowing the opening and playing of the files in any program that works with QuickTime, which is what GlueTools plays out through. So Final Cut, After Effects, etc., anything that can use QuickTime can read Phantom files right away. And if your harddrive is fast enough the playback is realtime. I daresay it is easier than RED workflow.
 
Mitch Gross said:
Hey Big T, I'll take a little issue with the "crap workflow" statement about Phantom. Using software like GlueTolls' Phantom Component, the workflow couldn't be easier. The original RAW .CINE files created by the cameras are read directly by GlueTools. What's more, GlueTools operates invisibly in the background, simply allowing the opening and playing of the files in any program that works with QuickTime, which is what GlueTools plays out through. So Final Cut, After Effects, etc., anything that can use QuickTime can read Phantom files right away. And if your harddrive is fast enough the playback is realtime. I daresay it is easier than RED workflow.
Click to expand...

Weeeeellll I retract my Crap work flow for PHANTOM then. (need to test it out first) I will also need to tell the guy that owns the Phantom we hired. We spent 2 days with him rendering the bloody files out before we could get the footage into AVID. Took for bloody ever.

Needless to say, I think the PHANTOM CAMERA is one of the best out there barring the price tag.
But What I can say with utmost confidence is that PHANTOM will never beat RED for quick on set and post work flow. As I (type) speak, I'm editing on set as quick as I can put my firewaire calbe into my laptop. No rendering or waiting. I'm not talking about real time camera playback, I'm talking about editing footage I shot 10 seconds ago in my laptop.

Regardless, I'm not going to get into a RED PHANTOM war. Both cameras are awesome, that's all I use now. Phantoms high speed capabilities are amazing, Awesome picture quality etc, RED image quality and work flow is staggering and considering the price is 20% of Phantom, RED still wins the BANG FOR BUCK AWARD.

Thanks Mitch for the "GlueTools" info too. We will try this shortly with our next PHANTOM shoot. I'm emailing the owner now.

cheers and thanks again.
 
Freestyleokc said:
Latitude 10 stops for RED, isn't it supposed to be 11.3?
Can someone clear this up for me.
Thanks
Click to expand...

Results vary, depends at what ISO you test at and how you discern the noise from the signal at the toe, etc... I wouldn't get too hung up on it.
 
Sarmoti said:
Results vary, depends at what ISO you test at and how you discern the noise from the signal at the toe, etc... I wouldn't get too hung up on it.
Click to expand...

ISO shouldn't affect RED's dynamic range at all, it's just metadata. The dynamic range is always from pitch black noise floor to clipped whites.

The numbers for other cameras like EX-1 look rather low too. I'm pretty sure it has much more than 7 stops. Heck, even the cheap HV20 is measured to have over 9 stops...
 
Halsu said:
ISO shouldn't affect RED's dynamic range at all, it's just metadata. The dynamic range is always from pitch black noise floor to clipped whites.
Click to expand...

Hi,

You have answered your own question! At 80 asa there will be 2 stops less DR than at 320 asa.

Stephen
 
Halsu said:
Heck, even the cheap HV20 is measured to have over 9 stops...
Click to expand...

Hi,

Not by Fletch! Those are not manufactures specs in that list

Stephen
 
What's the average national Rental relate to? A daily rental?
 
Stephen Williams said:
You have answered your own question! At 80 asa there will be 2 stops less DR than at 320 asa.
Click to expand...

No. The dynamic range is still the same. The only thing that changes is your exposure.

In other words, you lose available range above mid gray that was properly exposed according to the ASA, but gain just as much available range below it. The total dynamic range does not change.

Not by Fletch! Those are not manufactures specs in that list
Click to expand...

I'm talking about actual real world measurements.

Edit: Off the google, here's the first one i found about supposedly 7-stop EX-1:

http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/awilt/story/review_sony_pmw_ex1_1_2_3_cmos_hd_camcorder/P3/

I shot a backlit Stouffer TLF4110 transmission wedge (http://www.stouffer.net ) to measure the camera’s dynamic range. I’ve done this with other sub-$10,000 cameras and, for the most part, obtained values of around 8.0 to 9.3 stops between shadows lost in the noise and white clipping. The 9+ stop readings all involve a fair bit of shadow stretching and wishful thinking; realistically, figure on 8.5 stops.

The EX1 gives me 10 stops of latitude on the chart, and that corresponds to what I see in real-world pictures.

Ten stops.

Y’know, maybe this CMOS stuff ain’t so bad after all.
 
lewis said:
Yep. Daily rate.
Click to expand...

These numbers are far from reality.
Though, they are relatively reflect the relations between cameras' rates.
If a Phantom is $5000 a day Red is $1200 a day.
In reality they are cut down by 30%-50%.
Anyone has a different info?
 
The Dynamic Range and other info for the chart came from both the manufacturers as well as some response from some end users. I provided the information for the Phantom HD. I originally quoted a much greater Dynamic Range but then Tom Fletcher noted that a lot of his clients found the camera to be less. I know what a properly exposed image will yield with the camera but in deference to Tom we lowered the number. In reality the DR of the RED and the Phantom are almost identical.

As far as rental rates, that is based on a rate card listed price for a standard kit. For Phantom, Tom wished to use the price of the camera along with two 512G CineMags, which I considered to be a bit excessive (that's 4.5 hours of record time after all!). But that is what the rate would be for that kit. The camera itself is half that price. Similarly the rate for the RED is for a fairly complete pro end kit from a real rental house, and that number is about right.
 
Halsu said:
ISO shouldn't affect RED's dynamic range at all, it's just metadata. The dynamic range is always from pitch black noise floor to clipped whites.

The numbers for other cameras like EX-1 look rather low too. I'm pretty sure it has much more than 7 stops. Heck, even the cheap HV20 is measured to have over 9 stops...
Click to expand...


Sorry it took me so long to respond, been traveling. Just shoot a grayscale and expose for 100 ISO and then at 500 ISO and you'll find that you loose about two stops in the top end at 100 ISO. Yes, it is metadata but that's actually the reason this happens, the sensor isn't actually changing gain settings so it's not adaptive. When you go to higher EI's you get the full DR of the sensor at the expense of noise.
 
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