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Red "not perfected" in daylight

Ryan Patch

Ryan Patch

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Hey, all-

Just lost a rental (to an HVX, no less) because the shoot was going to be "all exterior, where there is little difference between HVX and RED, because the RED has not been perfected in daylight."'

Now, we all know by now that's not true on many levels (resolution, color depth, depth of field, etc). The "not perfected" quote, however, came from Michael Carmine, the most legit cinematography Prof. at my school (NYU, see http://filmtv.tisch.nyu.edu/object/CarmineM.html.

I'm sure that this idea is based in some sort of reality, though, and was wondering if anyone had an idea where it came from/what this producer was talking about.

Ryan

PS: It was an eye opening experience wanting to punch this woman when she said this to me, so sure of herself, saying this like it was a fact that I should know.
 
This is pretty crazy... I think there are MANY DPs that would disagree. Starting with Peter Jackson, Steven Soderbergh, and a ton of others.

Teachers teach because they can't make it in the real world? (at least a few of them).

Sorry... this is just plain dumb.

Jim
 
Jannard said:
(...)

Teachers teach because they can't make it in the real world? (at least a few of them).

(...)
Click to expand...
Hey Jim,

Let me out of there, OK?

E. :-)

EDIT -- BTW, there are a lot of others (lecturers, teachers, too) thinking the opposite.
 
We would be very happy to do a side by side at the RED HQ if he will fly here.

If he is right we will pay his airfare. If he is dead wrong, he needs to buy a camera (or at least put down a non-refundable deposit). :-)


Jim
 
Ryan Patch said:
I'm sure that this idea is based in some sort of reality, though, and was wondering if anyone had an idea where it came from/what this producer was talking about.
Click to expand...

The only guess I have would be something to do with IR contamination under heavy ND. IR cut filters solve that.

The HVX is still noisy as hell in the shadows even in broad daylight. It's no match for RED in daylight by any measurement. Resolution and dynamic range of RED blow the HVX away. I've heard some pretty stupid things from producers... this one is certainly up there with the stupidest.
 
Just when I thought I had heard of every possible ridiculous ignorant smear . . .

I'm trying to restrain myself from commenting about university professors . . . .

I have a Red One and an HVX; there is simply no comparison. I have done well with the HVX, but the Red One is in the World Series while the HVX is in little league, image-wise. Especially in daylight exteriors, where the added resolution and latitude is really noticeable.

Just unbelievable. Makes the current political dialogue in the U.S. seem quite reasonable by comparison.

Matthew Verkler

EDIT: I just checked out Ryan's link for Michael Carmine. Apparently he was a DP for "25 prime time network series" (list on the site), and 2nd Unit DP on 10 features. So perhaps it's a case of resistance to change combined with speaking authoritatively on something he has no experience with (Red, that is). Perhaps he, like many, are threatened by Red. The HVX is not a threat to his Arri 35-3. In any case, he's just wrong.
 
Moreover, what does "to be perfect" mean? Give me a break... this quote is completely stupid. At least, apparently coming from and in this context. There's always a context for any instructor. Or I must say even without more clues on subject, he's a bad one.
 
"Teachers teach because they can't make it in the real world? (at least a few of them)."

jim jannard

Emanuel said:
Hey Jim,

Let me out of there, OK?

E. :-)
Click to expand...
me either.. :holloween:
 
Jannard said:
We would be very happy to do a side by side at the RED HQ if he will fly here.

If he is right we will pay his airfare. If he is dead wrong, he needs to buy a camera (or at least put down a non-refundable deposit). :-)


Jim
Click to expand...

Hey Jim up the stakes!!!

If he's right give him 11 full camera packages (1 for him and 10 for the school)

And then pay for his fare and also a stay in a suite at one of the hotels on the strip.
 
Jim-

I've e-mailed Prof. Carmine your challenge, and I'll let you know if he responds or laughs us off.

Are you talking side-by-side with the HVX or with film?

He really is a great guy, though. Be nice :)

Ryan
 
Being a university professor myself, I hope I'm among the rare exceptions Jim mentioned ;-)

Anyway, I'm the cinematography professor at our university, and even if we are not as famous as NYU, we have HVX-200s, EX-1s and a RED. Even the EX-1 is blowing the HVX away and the RED is leaving both far behind.
OTOH, there are a few students who I'd never let handle a RED – be it daylight or studio …
 
85

85

4x485_big.jpg
 
Well, there is no shortage of fools in this world and you just had a first hand evidence of that.

joelnet said:
The only guess I have would be something to do with IR contamination under heavy ND. IR cut filters solve that.
Click to expand...

IR contamination is common to all CCD and CMOS cameras, not just RED. It is just that with RED you can actually see it. I certainly experienced it in a big way on both Canon EOS 40D and 5D when I used heavy ND filtering.

You are right, you can solve it with either IR cut or with mirror ND filters.
 
Ryan Patch said:
the most legit cinematography Prof. at my school
Click to expand...

Wow... I wouldn't be so sure about that anymore, if I were you. I haven't heard a more ill-informed comment in the longest of times. And I've owned both an HVX and a RED One. The HVX has that typical Panasonic look to it. A bit on the warm side. Hard to get rid of. The RED is much more neutral, WYSIWYG.

Are you sure he wasn't talking about tungsten? That'd be a whole different story. But, daylight, wow... that's a good one!
 
Having shot a lot on both the HVX/HPX and the RED there is absolutely no way I would choose to shoot the HVX again unless the project was difficult run-and-gun, or uber time critical.

The image from an HVX is good at best, and downright noisy and ugly at worst. I'm guessing the decision to shoot HVX is more down to rental cost than actual imaging. Rumors like this just give an easy excuse not to spend more.

Lets see if the Prof puts his money where his mouth is.
 
Ryan Patch said:
"because the RED has not been perfected in daylight."
Click to expand...

This is a pretty dumb and uninformed thing for a lecturer at a prestigious film school to be saying - are you sure the female producer didn't get it the wrong way round (i.e. she meant it wasn't perfected in tungsten??)

Even if they were referring to the IR issue (which all sensors suffer, not just Red's), it's still a very misinformed thing to say since the IR issue only starts to manifest itself on bright days when you're using or stacking ND's over about 0.9 upwards...we don't see too many these kind of days in the UK :-(

And anyway there are various solutions to this particular issue like hot mirrors and IR cutting NDs.

I'm always stunned when production people pronounce about Red-related things like they know what they're talking about when in fact all they've done is picked up some Chinese whispers from misinformed people. I think a lot of them believe that if you say something with enough conviction (especially negative things) then people will believe you know what you're talking about.
 
very strange... it says on his biographie that he worked on second unit for jumper.wasn't jumper 2nd unit shot with the red ?
 
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