I can afford the RED, but should I?

[Steve Sanacore]

Are you shooting the film yourself? If so, do you have the skills to shoot with the RED? Will you have a good AC to pull focus and a good gaffer to light? Those would be my considerations. The RED footage will look much better but shooting will be more demanding.

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

I should add one addition factor to consider. When we were thinking of shooting with the HVX, we planned on a budget of about $50,000. Buying the RED meant that we upped our budget considerably, especially considering the REDs. In total, we spent several times our original budget. We simply would not have done that if we were shooting with the HVX.

Happily, however, the vast majority of that extra money went to equipment that will be used to shoot our next film, as well. And this time, we're going for all of the marbles!

Stephen

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I say the OP should indeed shoot his feature on RED over the HVX. For what Stephen just said above. It's the same reason I now do 99% of my shooting on RED, even though I don't have to. Most of my stuff is boring corporate projects, government stuff, interviews... Anything I do that is narrative in nature or shooting stock, etc.. is all hobby-based. I bought the RED One because I wanted it (hobby), but at the same time I knew it would work for what I shoot professionally. I get a lot of compliments on my work since switching to the RED from the HVX. Customers don't understand cameras, they just know my work looks better lately. I also don't have to feel like I am settling for second-best when doing my own personal projects either. If I shoot a feature or even a short film and it gets noticed, even picked up for distribution, I would be kicking myself if I shot it with the HVX when I could have shot it with RED.

This is not an endorsement or recommendation to buy the camera. In fact, if you're talking about a single feature for now, I would seriously consider renting. Get some rental quotes, start figuring out how a RED rental or series of rentals will work out in comparison to an outright purchase.

One saving grace of buying the RED One will be future trade-in value. That RED One body will be worth $17.5K to someone down the road, no matter what. I seriously don't see a RED One body being sold for less than $15.5K as long as the EPIC trade-in deal exists. Accessories are another story. And don't expect resale values on media (especially RED Drives with HDDs inside) to be very good.

Might want to start shopping that HVX kit around too. Its days are seriously numbered.

 

[Richard Goodwin]

Being someone who is in a similar position and facing a similar decision: I have a projects I want to shoot; I have a Deposit down; and I'm going into my final decision phase about if this is the right cam to buy, should I rent etc. I can only offer some points that I have been using to form my own decision.

1. I think it's better to look at these purchases as extended rentals. With the rapid development in Digital Cinema anything you buy has an expiration date on it. However, some things decline in value much faster. This is very different from the "film days" when if you bought a 35mm Mitchell from the studio days you could (and can) still use it today. It might not be quite as perfect as a current Arri 35. But, it will produce a pretty similar result. The point being that none of these cameras can be treated as extremely long term purchases. They are more like computers now. You will have them but at some point you will prob. upgrade because the technology is improving so rapidly.

So, it's back to the declining value curve. As one poster said sell that HVX fast. However, the RED may (will) become out of date. But, it will still be shooting images that can go into a theatre anytime. Its value and resale value will be good for a few years at least.

If you go for RED (or stay with HVX) you should plan on selling at some point before the value of the equipment declines too much. Considering the upgrade and trade-in potential for RED it should still have a good bit of value.

Also, all the accessories you buy (assuming you choose quality, standard stuff like rods, base-plates etc.) will be able to resold because they are, for the most part cinema standard. The same is true for the optics. If you treat that stuff well and maintain it you can recover a lot of its value if you choose to sell it off.

For a simple calculation take what you could get now for your HVX rig vs. two years from now. Do the same for RED. My guess is you will end up loosing more or close to the same on the HVX because its value will decline more. There will still be a solid market for the body used. And, assuming RED sticks with its modular, and reusable approach for accessories all of them can be resold to other RED owners (I think there was a thread where Jim Jannard even stated that all RED accessories would fit Epic?).

Your real cost will be the depreciation on the equipment not the cost of initial purchase (that is assuming you sell, maybe you will use it for two more movies ).

2. Think about ways you can make some of the purchase price back. For myself I'm not planning to be a full time rental house or operator. But, over two years just with weekend rentals, and maybe renting to another feature for a month or two I can make some of the purchase price back.

Of course there is a lot of competition in the rental area because there are already so many RED cameras out there. It depends on where you live and your business connections. But, you can form those. Also, you can do some projects for money; even for causes you care about. Do a PSA and charge them some small fee to help pay back your cam. Shoot a wedding or two. Etc...

For me I decided to focus on making a specific amount back (say 10K of my purchase) so I have a realistic target. It does not pay for the whole thing but it lowers the total cost.

3. Pleasure. If you are using tools it does make a difference when you ENJOY using them. There is no monetary value to this. But, I do think it affects your work simply by making it more fun. I was thinking of a lot of cameras, but when I actually picked up a RED and looked through the finder (EVF) I was hooked. It just felt like cinema. That may be cheesy. But, I'm guessing there are others who feel that way.

In the past having had different still cameras I know that some were just such a joy to use; and it was not related to cost; I would say my Holga and Hasselblad were so pleasurable to use that the shooting days were much more fun. Think about that when you are going to be doing much run and gun on a 75+ day shoot. There is something more inspiring when its just a joy to use your equipment. For Cinema that equipment is your work space. It's like a dancer having a good studio. Or a Glassblower a good workshop and tools.

For me just going to the ocean and shooting the waves come in would be fun with the RED. I don't know if you can put a money value to that. But, it does count for something.

There are a lot of other points. But, I don't want to repeat the good advice already in this thread. I hope these thoughts add to your decision process.

Good luck deciding. Reading this thread has really helped me to think about my decision too. So, thanks for posting this.

 

[Ian Laurie]

I was in a similar situation as well. I am just finishing film school and was trying to figure out what to do next. when it came down to it i hated the fact that nothing ever looked as good as i wanted it to. from handicams to hvx 200 to a hvx(?) 900. I always felt slightly ripped off. I figured that there is so much TERRIBLE work done out there for local tv ads, that using them as a revenue to pay off the camera, while having the ability to finally make my projects "feel" real in terms of the look, that i decided to buy. I don't have it yet but my theory is right. I already have work lined up. and now i am focusing on paying off the camera and building funds for my feature. If this camera truly produces that beautiful cinematic feel, which i believe it does, then it will be worth it for me for years to come.

 

[D Namir]

And most important, check if you have good scripts. This is the base for everything that will come afterward!

 

[MadamImAdam]

The thoughtful responses in this thread have been useful to me, and I am once again grateful to the reduser.net community for sharing so generously.

I believe the arguments for renting a Red or hiring a DP with a Red are sound. I only wish I could go this route. And I definitely would (and likely will) do so for a more conventional commercial project. But this particular movie would require the DP/Red to be available at a moment's notice over several months. And we'll be doing things like packing into the bush for two weeks in order to get what would amount to three days of conventional shooting. Three committed buddies and an owned camera can do this. Add a hired DP and a rented camera...not so practical. That's why I'm the DP (I do have a decade of experience) and why I don't want an obstacle of any kind between me and the camera.

I remain unpersuaded by the assertions that the HVX200 guarantees an amateurish or "student film" result in an indie feature. I believe these assertions contradict a mountain of real-world evidence.

These are the hallmarks of the "amateurish" feature film, in order of the harm they do:

BAD SCRIPT - The plot doesn't move; the characters aren't believable
BAD ACTING - Often because the bad script gives performers nothing to work with
BAD SOUND - Especially poorly captured on-set dialogue
BAD LIGHTING - Either no lighting or fake/cliched lighting
BAD CAMERA OPERATION - Shaky; poorly executed moves

Imagine a low-budget indie feature with a great script, solid performances, crisp sound, tasteful lighting and competent camera operation. Now imagine it has all that, but it nonetheless has a low-resolution, sometimes noisy image because it was shot with an inexpensive camera.

Does the audience therefore hate this movie? Do they rate this well-written and wonderfully acted movie as "amateurish" because the image isn't as punchy and sharp as Hollywood movies are?

Personally, I have never seen this happen. In fact, you can even start committing violations starting from the bottom of the list above without alienating the audience. Thomas Vinterberg's brilliant "The Celebration" (aka "Festen") was mentioned earlier in this thread by Smartin. This film not only displays extremely low optical and pixel resolution, but also the tiny Sony PC7 camera was handheld in every shot, and there was literally no lighting used on the set due to the Dogma 95 rules. But the movie has an excellent script and top-notch performances that you can actually hear, and audiences love it.

I don't fetishize low image quality. A film should look as good as you can reasonably make it look. But it's obvious to me that optical and pixel resolution do not rank high on the audience's list of priorities. Even when they decide that a movie feels "cheap," factors like bad acting, bad sound and bad camera operation are more likely to trigger this judgment than low image resolution. The Red is a superior camera to the HVX200, but it does not follow from this fact that the HVX200 cannot be used to produce good work that an audience will love.

All that said, I do of course still want a Red One.

The argument for buying the Red One with a plan to sell it is compelling. I am generally pessimistic about the resale value of any digital camera. Has there ever been a digital still or video camera that did not depreciate steeply over a short period of time? However, the guaranteed $17,500 value of the Red One body as a trade-in on Epic is definitely a game-changer in this regard. It would seem to create a unique new market for a used Red One: Epic buyers who don't own a Red One, and who will therefore value a Red One body at somewhere near $17,500. The unknown supply/demand ratio will lower this figure by some amount, but it seems reasonable to expect a Red One to depreciate considerably less than any other digital camera. If at the end of production I sold the Red One body for $15,000, and sold the remaining accessories for only 50 cents on the dollar, that's a loss of $8,750 on the complete $30K package I am planning to assemble. Divided by 75 shooting days, that's $116/day.

These numbers make a lot of sense. I think I could get $8,750 of value out of the Red One while making a feature film. And I could lower that cost by whatever I could sell my HVX200 package for. Judging by eBay, probably about $4k. So one way to look at this situation: Will my feature film have $4,750 more value if shot on the Red One instead of the HVX? This question leaves out significant factors (the $30K will be tied up until I sell the equipment, I must upgrade immediately to an Intel MacPro instead of waiting), but it is nonetheless a legitimate way of looking at the raw numbers.

If I could actually rent a Red package for $8,750 for one year, I'd obviously prefer that. But thinking about the remaining $21.5K as a "deposit" that I get back at the end of the one-year rental period is a tempting way to look at this.

 

[Jason Ing]

MadamIam,

Maybe you should have put a third option in your poll:

3) I have this great script and will do a great job shooting it. So I should put the $30k I have now toward raising production value... but only after selling my HVX200 and saving up for a Red One (because that will also raise production value) so I can put my best foot forward on my third film to give it the greatest chance of selling at a film festival which would recoup the money I personally invested, turn a profit, and launch my career into the stratosphere.

 

[Jason Ing]

P.S. Personally, I opted for a combination of choices 1 and 3 (minus having to sell a HVX200).

I bought a Red One and will do "small" productions with it, music videos for a friend, shorts, etc.

I'll gain a lot of experience creating great images with the Red One (sure, audiences accept crappy images, but I really think they do appreciate, enjoy, and prefer beautiful images) while I save up for my movie to increase its production value.

 

[Florian Stadler]

I don't think you can put together a feature Red package for 30K even with Nikon lenses, Red accessories and Redrock MB/FF,Miller Tripod.

Camera Body: 17500
CF Module: 500
3 16GB cards:1650
2 Red Raids w. Cables: 2200
EVF w. extra cable:3130
LCD w. extra cable: 1880
Production Pack: 1250
Left Handle: 250
Top Mount: 250
Pair of 12" Rods: 80
2 Red Power Packs: 2900
AC Adapter: 150.00
19mm Base: 900
Case: 450
Redrock Mattebox: 795
Redrock Follow Focus and 5 still lens gears: 800
Basic Filter Kit: 900
Miller Arrow 55 Tripod: 5500
Nikkor set 80mm fronts: 2000
Cases/Backpacks for Lenses, MB, FF: 400
Total: 43485,-

Add Sales Tax to that if you live in CA.

This is the absolute minimum feature package with no frills and you don't have any drives yet to store your footage and no Macbook Pro, etc.

I spent 100K on mine but I didn't cut any corners whatsoever:

www.florianstadler.com/red.html

Good Luck!

 

[Jason Ing]

I don't think that's the absolute minimum. For example, is it absolutely necessary to have both the EVF and LCD? One could suffice.

But that's nitpicking since I agree that $30k is low considering that it is absolutely necessary to include the costs of storage, post, etc.

 

[cinemano]

Well i felt the RED is an amazing camera for sure.. but my shots when viewed at 100% size (not blown up) look soft to my understanding of soft. Im using the same Nikon lens on my Nikon camera and I can zoom into my Nikon fotos and its much sharper. Even if i take a 4K photo with it. Like i said it prob a question of taste. Many call it the "film look" to me looks like a 20% blow up somehow

 

[cinemano]

and before someone says "did you use a proper AC, ect" yes.. we did.. i had some 3 DPs and 2 ACs.. we did tests with even Zeiss Nikons expensive lenses.. we did backfocus adjustments even.. made it razor sharp focus with measuring tape, and even by eye on LCD.. we tried everything.. Some of my DPs disagree.. but to me it aint 100% sharp at real size view. I find the ex1 sharper. is it video sharp vs film look? id really like to know. Perhaps im misunderstanding what sharp is all about.

 

[Jason Ing]

There's threads about this, but from what I understand, another factor in sharpness is not just the lens, but also the possibility that there is sharpening occuring in the camera as well. I don't know if the Nikon slr does this, but I do know (correct me if I'm wrong) that Red doesn't sharpen at all (I believe that's what I read before) so you can sharpen to taste in post.

 

[MadamImAdam]

florianstadler,

Thanks for that detailed budget advice. I have a budget with many of the same line items. Not included in mine are those items I already have (camera support, filter set, cases) or currently believe I do not require (EVF, Red Raids). Since I was planning on January 2009 acquisition I had hopefully included the Birger mount and controls in my budget. However, the budget does include a healthy contingency should I have to piece together a different mounting and FF solution.

The contingency is also present to cover any shortfalls I notice as I actually implement a workflow for this feature. I'd rather discover that I need more batteries or memory in prep than over-buy at first and end up with acquisitions that are giving me no value. Currently the memory represents more footage time than I have found necessary with my HVX P2 workflow, but I confess I have not deeply researched the RED workflow yet to spotlight any significant differences.

I am not including postproduction equipment in my camera department budget, but I am aware that I'll need more for the RED than I currently use with the HVX.

Here's my current RED package budget...

Red Body $17500
Production Pack $1250
Power Pack $1450
CF Module $500
4x8GB CF $800
LCD Monitor $3000
Birger mount and controls $2000
Tokina 11-16mm zoom $570
Nikon 18-200mm zoom $660
SUBTOTAL: $27,730
Contingency $3,000
TOTAL $30,730

If anyone sees any red flags here (so to speak) I'd appreciate any feedback.

 

[Jason Ing]

You're getting almost everything I have.

Consider getting the Lexar Pro 300x. They're the only non-Red CF cards that are proven to work. I think you can still get the rebate and someone said they're going for $60-ish at B&H.

Also consider getting the cheese plate for a more solid connection to your tripod (production pack's shoulder mount will be wobbly).

What about a Red drive and cable or 16GB for longer takes?

Additional handle for the production pack? (if you want two handles to hold on to, also consider getting the Red Handle mount which widens the handles to make it a little more comfortable.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Sell the HVX, buy an EX3, and put the remaining 20K toward production.

 

[cinemano]

agree with Tom.. the ex3 is pretty amazing. Save your 20K for the film, then with the ticket sales get the EPIC

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I don't think you can put together a feature Red package for 30K even with Nikon lenses, Red accessories and Redrock MB/FF,Miller Tripod.

Camera Body: 17500
CF Module: 500
3 16GB cards:1650
2 Red Raids w. Cables: 2200
EVF w. extra cable:3130
LCD w. extra cable: 1880
Production Pack: 1250
Left Handle: 250
Top Mount: 250
Pair of 12" Rods: 80
2 Red Power Packs: 2900
AC Adapter: 150.00
19mm Base: 900
Case: 450
Redrock Mattebox: 795
Redrock Follow Focus and 5 still lens gears: 800
Basic Filter Kit: 900
Miller Arrow 55 Tripod: 5500
Nikkor set 80mm fronts: 2000
Cases/Backpacks for Lenses, MB, FF: 400
Total: 43485,-

Add Sales Tax to that if you live in CA.

This is the absolute minimum feature package with no frills and you don't have any drives yet to store your footage and no Macbook Pro, etc.

I spent 100K on mine but I didn't cut any corners whatsoever:

www.florianstadler.com/red.html

Good Luck!

Thanks Florian, you just reminded me how much money I have spent. :biggrin:

That's almost my exact Red Kit, except I don't have 16GB cards, and I have a few extras not on that list.

Sure, you can skimp by with less, but once you start shooting with the camera you will find that two batteries doesn't cut it, especially if you are asking those batteries to power EVF, LCD, drive, etc.

It will cost more than you think, but at the same time, you can always rent what you can't afford to buy. Get the basics and rent the rest.

 

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Send me your script, I'll cut off 30 000$ in wise rewriting, and you'll have a camera to shoot amazing cheap features for 10 years...

OR

Get a crazy Red owner here to go with you on your shoot for 10 000$ and make him a co-producer...

(And call your film Brokebackshish Mountain)

I admire your ambition friend... And that Herzog pep talk was great!