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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

I can afford the RED, but should I?

I can afford the RED, but should I?

  • Buy the RED One

    Votes: 63 59.4%

  • Stick with the HVX and spend the $30K on the rest of the production

    Votes: 43 40.6%
  • Total voters
    106
Wow, what a great bunch of responses. And fast, too.

I laughed when I checked in on the poll results just now: 10 say go Red, 10 say stay with HVX. Well, at least the results confirm that this is a tough decision.

znelson -- For this movie, it's not practical to rent. Sometimes i'll need to be able to shoot on a moment's notice, to catch the right weather or because of performer availability. Sometimes I'll need to go horse packing into the backcountry, and I'd be paying to rent a camera during several days of mere transportation. Between March and October I'll probably end up shooting 75 days -- but spread out unpredictably over that time. My method of feature shooting works best if I own the camera and the other frequently used tools of production (basic lighting, grip, sound, truck). I rent the exotic stuff. I also can't imagine getting really good with the Red without lots of practice with it. I use my HVX literally every day. Often just shooting some wildlife out on the deck for an hour, but still, daily practice and review of footage are what keep my chops up with this challenging camera.

Valde -- Thanks for the tip on that music video. Looks great.

R3D2 -- I have an Intel MacBook, but my dual-2Ghz PowerMac is not Intel. You're right that I'd need to figure in the expense of upgrading to Mac Pro sooner than I was planning. As far as adding post-production time, I don't mind. With my method, time is cheap. It's money that's expensive. But you're right that the HVX "Log and Transfer" into FCP over FireWire is darn easy, now that I think about it.

Nils -- I like Herzog's advice about stealing a Red. Also, I noticed that you own Red #2331. Also, I was thinking about visiting Norway soon. What is your address and when are you usually gone?

Don Julio -- Given that well-received indie features have been shot on mini-DV (Personal Velocity is a fine example), I think you may exaggerate the inevitability of the "student film" look from the HVX.

P. Harrill -- I like the Varicam. I'd put it halfway between the HVX and the Red. Unfortunately, the marketplace doesn't put its price there. Yet. If I could snap up a good used Varicam w/lens for $12K, I'd do it in a heartbeat. But to spend substantially more than that...well, that's Red territory, brand new.

Gary Stone -- Yep, the HVX needs lots and lots of light. About halfway through magic hour, that's it for the day, unless you love noise (in which case you'll be in heaven). Fortunately, I'm shooting lots of day exteriors, and I can light my day and night interiors adequately. Night exteriors are the biggest challenge, but I don't have many, and I'd probably have to rent lights anyway with the Red.

Jason Ing -- I don't know if the HVX has yet built up an indie-feature resume to rival the Sony VX1000 or PD150, but both of those cameras have shot Sundance award-winners, so it doesn't seem outside the HVX's limits.

Jack_Felis -- The HVX can produce a 1080p24p image with a bit more post hassle than the simpler 720p or 1080i workflow. You just have to do a pulldown. And it looks good. I have projected show-off images in front of friends and had them gasp. The Red kind of makes everything else pale in comparison, but the HVX200 can produce some really good-looking stuff if you know the camera well and have it pointed at something awesome. That said, I'm sure HVX 1080p and Red 2K would be similar only in the numbers; the Red would look much better. (Note: I think the old Varicam was 720p-only, albeit from a nice 2/3" chip. It's the new Varicam that steps up to 1080p.)

number6 -- Funny you should mention that. My backup plan is Scarlet. But I would never, ever, ever count on a piece of new technology showing up on a projected date, so I'm not seriously figuring Scarlet into my near-future plans. If it shows up in time, though, I'll of course snap one up, as it's almost certainly a major step up from the HVX (for 10% of what I'd have to spend going the Red One route).

sander kamp -- Sorry, I have to respectfully disagree with you there. In my experience with the HVX200, outdoor scenes with plenty of even light (as well as professionally lit interiors that give you a solid 2.8 or better) are where this camera shines. Give me a slightly overcast day in the Rocky Mountains and I'll come back with some nice-looking footage. It's the run-and-gun in available light that results in the weak HVX images I've seen. Whether from God or the gaffer, the HVX200 needs light -- and the right kind of light, too, since the highlights blow out almost as easily as the shadows throw a noise party. If I had to shoot in available/unpredictable light, I'd rather have a low-noise/high-dynamic-range camera like the Red.
 
I would say it ultamitely depends on the story you are telling and how you are telling it. Fantastical departures from reality need production value to suspend the disbelief where as gritty truthfull cautionary tales are sometimes more to the point in a low budget digital feel. If you are getting nitty gritty shoot hvx exsisting or practical lights and spend your time and money on locations and time to get the story told organically. Viewers ans aquistion execs will look past production value as they appreciate the honesty of your film. Otherwise shoot red and sell our body for lights and cranes!
 
everything you put on the sceen counts ...
either rent or buy the RED... if you buy it, then you sell it at end of production and put the $$ into post ...
so if you pay 31k and think you can sell it for 22-25kk ? .. if rental is 15k for the period you need then maybe buying and selling is best ??? you'll have to run the numbers ...
 
Just rent it, even if the rental price will be 30% of buying a new Red package. And if you intend keep on producing your own feature films in the future I would invest in lenses (PL mount), head and legs, their value and use will last longer while the Red camera will value almost nothing in 2-5 years from now.
Go to the first page of www.red.com and you will understand why... Scarlet ... Epic... and if we think Arri, Sony, Pansonic etc will sit on the fence and watch the red team working, we are wrong.
 
Here's another response that won't help you make up your mind.. ha!

You have to look beyond this one production and ask yourself what else you would do with the RED One. Will you be shooting more than this one feature over the next 12 to 18 months to justify the purchase? You already own other gear, even if it's old lights and whatnot, seems as if you're trying to do more than shoot a feature and walk away from the equipment.

Renting may still be a good option, even with a sporadic and drawn-out shooting schedule. There are several RED cameras in Colorado, many in Denver and surrounding areas. Me for starters, but there are others, take a look in the RED Owners Rental Group section of this site. This can save you from spending all of that $30K on a basic camera kit and get you access to more equipment like a nice dolly, steadicam system w/ operator, etc..

Don't plan on Scarlet in time for the start of your feature. As of right now, the latest word is working models at NAB (mid-April) and they should be shipping then or shortly after.

Just food for thought.
 
I was in a similar decision making situation when I ordered my Red. All my money could go to the Red, or it could go to a cheap camera and the rest into production. But I didn't already have a camera, and I figured I'd be doing more than just one project, so I decided to spend the money on the Red. The recommendations given to me by EVERYONE though (this was back when Red was still vaporware), was to spend only a minimum on a basic camera, and then as much as possible in front of the lens, since that's what the audience will see. I ignored that advice, and now I find myself with a camera and... hmm, no money to make a movie. But, I'm taking this time to work on my script, and I'm thinking up new ideas for projects that I could shoot at little or no cost. I'm also planning to go back to work until I can save up enough to do my movie. It's all just an issue of patience.

So, do you have to shoot this thing immediately? Why not save up more money for another year or two and then get both the Red and the production luxuries?

If you really can't wait, then you have to ask yourself which you value more; the picture content, or the picture quality? If it's any help towards making your decision - critics attack the story and performances first, then the sound, then the picture quality. Also remember; dollies, cranes, and artificial lighting, aren't the drivers of a good movie.
 
I agree with the content first view. Content, than people, then camera quality.. up to a point.

And I also think that we as production professionals massively overestimate the importance of the RED look. Normal human beings are not watching a movie for overexposed highlight soft knee transitions and noise in the blue channel. You want proof? Sit your wife's friend down and show her 2 scenes shot identically, one with an hvx/35mm adapter and one with a red. Under most conditions, the friend will NOT SEE A DIFFERENCE. Obviously not true in a theater, but once again, if your main audience is watching on tv....

disclosure: I own and shoot with a RED, buy really, I'd spend the money on a great DP or LD before I spent it on the red. Look at that canon 5DmkII video going around by vincent laforet. that looks better than what a lot of RED owners have shot....

don't hate me for saying that.... but really, show your non movie friends (ie your potential audience) that vincent movie and show them some red stuff and ask them if the cameras are the same or different. They will not be able to tell.

And before you start screaming about production quality and dumbing down and internet compression and skew, let me run out of the room.

I have to go shoot some more.

Why not team up with someone here who owns a RED? You might be able to get someone involved for the back end, or shoot, ketch is getting people to shoot for free bringing REDs with them. Seems there's RED owners sitting around. Jason Ing has had his camera on the shelf since january waiting for the birger mount if I understand correctly. (sorry if that's not true jason)

as a theoretical exercise, I bet David Mullen with a handful of lights and an hvx would tell a better story than me with my RED and a 20k lighting truck.
 
my opinion:

i'm a purist when it comes to images.

BUT:

i'm able to forget the lack of picture quality - allmost everybody is.

on the other hand i will definitely forget a film with a poor story and a bad overall feeling.

if the image lacks of quality but the whole rest of the film is brilliant, people will
remember it forever and nobody will say "yeah - but it looked like video"

think of some lars von trier movies (DOGMA) - they are not even lit!
but "Festen" for example is brilliant in my opinion.

martin


PS: and yeah, maxwax is right - why not try to involve somebody who owns one?
if i'd live close to you I'd definitelly help you out.
 
30k towards better actors, better crew, better lighting, better production values will do a LOT more then a better image.

Yes, the RED is fantastic, but if you *really* want to use it well, you need more then 30k.
Do you also have a good focus puller? Because it's great to have 35mm DOF, but if the image falls out of focus every 10 seconds because you aren't seasoned with it, it will do you more harm then good.

If your budget would be like 200.000 dollars or something, I would say: yes, spend 50.000 towards a good Red package. But with your budget: get the best production values you can. No one will really care about the pixels afterwards, if you threat the image correctly.
Somebody here said: if you shoot with the HVX you will have a high-budget student film and if you shoot with a RED you will have a low-budget professional film.

I beg to differ: if you have spent all your money at the camera, and you don't have the money for professional actors or production values etc. ... you will only have a really amateuristic movie that just happens to look good. People will *not* care for your movie in that case.

In film academy, some 1st year students really wanted to shoot their movie with 16mm, instead of video, like all the other ones did. You know what?
Once projected (not professionally) it looked the same as the rest, but their story was worse. They didn't won any prize, but many other students who shot on video and had a better movie, won prizes.

Good luck with the movie!
 
If you can afford to tie up some cash for awhile, you can put 10% down and order a RED. That will give you months to make the decision, and you can always decide not to buy and get your money back. If you sit on the fence too long, you'll simply rule out buying a RED because of the wait.

If you are unsure, keep your options open. Things may change to make your choice clear, either way. Just my 2¢.

EDIT: Just saw the new delivery schedule, so maybe this doesn't apply anymore.
 
Buy a RED shoot your film, sell your RED.

A 17,5K US$ trade in towards an Epic on a used RED ONE will keep it´s price from falling unless everything goes completely down the drain.
 
You won't get much for your resold Red in a year I assume..

Scarlet I would say if you or anyone without much knowledge about cameras is shooting. But consider hiring a professional DP, they sometimes can arrange good package deals also and put it on another level.. throw the rest in front of the lens and above all make sure your story is great and original.
 
muroshi said:
You won't get much for your resold Red in a year I assume..

Scarlet I would say if you or anyone without much knowledge about cameras is shooting. But consider hiring a professional DP, they sometimes can arrange good package deals also and put it on another level.. throw the rest in front of the lens and above all make sure your story is great and original.
Click to expand...

Why wouldn't the RED One be worth much in a year's time? Epic will be in an entirely different price range (2x-3x cost for the body alone?) and Scarlet, while 3k, will not be able to compete with the interchangeable lenses, larger sensor, and other customizable features of the RED One. Not to mention the free upgrade to Mysterium X when it is available, and the $17,500 trade-in value towards an Epic.

Sounds to me like the method of purchasing the necessary RED equipment and selling/trading it off after production is the best way to go (assuming you can't split the camera budget between another upcoming project).


**yeah, i'm basing all my assumptions on those future cameras on the previously released specs because at this point, we don't know what will be changing. But I think we can safely assume that there will be significant price & feature differences between the models no matter what is changed.
 
Neo8234, don't forget the competition and that Scarlet probably will be sold with a larger sensor I hope. It's very risky adding a resellvalue in a budget with digital cameras. And before you say a D5II is no competition: The imagery looks better as imagery from the DVX he likes to shot with.
 
I would advise a RED.

You will love, what you can do with the image in the post.

I agree, that image quality is not everything, and that you have to take care of all the other goodies as well (actors, crew, etc. ...), but image quality remains a substantial part of the movie. While I adore the low-tech films, that have brilliant stories, I never watched them twice.

I rent, or make a deal with a Dop, to whom I present the project, and I try to involve him. You say, that you want to shoot very long, that you will have a lot of shooting days, so that might be tricky, as such projects are better, if the shootings days are not spread over months like in your case.

But with 4300 REDs out there, there must be someone, who can spare it for a month or two. Some people have to sell, because of economic pressures, maybe a deal with them might help both out?

I think that even a very basic, barebone REDsetup will give you a more cinematic experience than videocameras.

Also, what you might consider, that when you bring your project in 4K quality, and it has rare footage, you might get a posthouse as a partner easier, than when you bring "just" 720p/1080p. I very worst case, you need 1-2 1TB firewire drives and a MacBook to edit your footage, and to create a demo, to pitch for such partnerships.

So bottom line (in my oppinion) is, that 30K will not be enough to buy the RED ONE package you are envisioning. But maybe 10K will allow you to rent it. And that is the deal I would look into.
 
dude, i had a HVX200.. i was always frustrated because i found it kinda soft.. one day i bought a cheap camera.. the hv20. I connected it to my plasma by hdmi and realised that even that tiny thing looked sharper than my hvx200. I sold it quick and my car too.. to get the RED :) Ok, to be honest i also find the RED a little soft.. but im using Nikon lens not RED lenses.. perhaps im a sharp-a-holic.. I find the Ex1 damn sharp though. Maybe i look for video sharp and not film look?
 
Sorry, I can't recommend you buy a camera just to shoot a film. Especially if it involves getting in debt (just an uninformed guess). I'd personally stick with the 200 and put some of that that cash towards production values, talent or perhaps camera accessories that will give you greater creative control (e.g: DOF adapter, Dolly, Renting a grip truck, etc...).

If your film is good, it's going to be good on the 200. I recommend upgrading the script, talent and accessories since they offer better bang for your buck than upgrading the camera and lacking in other departments.

Just my opinion.
 
I was in the EXACT same position!

I was in the EXACT same position!

Our original poster is in the EXACT same position I was about a year ago. I had a complete HVX-200 system with a Brevis (and an M2 before that) and Nikon lenses. I was going to be shooting a feature film and then the RED became available.

Well, I opted for the RED. And not just one, but two. Why? Because of something that Valde said: If I made a film with the HVX and it looked second rate, I would always question my decision to shoot it on the HVX, especially since the RED was, indeed, available. If I made it using the RED, and it looked second rate, I'd at least know that it was MY fault and not the fault of my gear.

I don't know about everyone else, but I can take not being very good. What I can't take is knowing that I COULD HAVE BEEN GOOD, but I didn't have appropriate gear.

As I said, we opted for the RED, and we couldn't be more pleased. How does our film look? We think it looks great. The camera is better than the acting in some cases, and certainly better than the script in a few others, but boy does that image sing. Now that we have that first feature under our belts, we're coming back next year for Round Two, loaded to bear.

So, again, in a nutshell, go for the RED. The HVX is a fine camera, and it blew me away when I first got it, but my best friend here in town, who just now bought an HVX on Ebay, said, "you know, I can't believe I'm saying this, but buying the RED really was a great decision. The thing just looks amazing."

So, there you have it. Go RED.

Stephen
 
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