Reds for Sale

[Billy Mead]

Hi gang,

Just wondering out loud but why is it so many cameras seem to be selling recently? I have read most posts and there have been various reasons given but is anyone just out right disappointed? With our numbers coming up shortly (December) I hope we are making the right decision. I could do an awful lot with the $80k it’s going to cost (RED cameras, accessories galore).

As I have mentioned in other posts we rent cool stuff (rental house) but this will be our largest single purchase and it keeps me up at night. We will be able to successfully rent the package as we have a lot of glass too but I think we’ll be shipping a lot. While filmmaking has increased 10 fold (due to 25% Massachusetts tax refund checks) I doubt we’ll stay booked solid for awhile.

Also, I would think that the resale value could drop as premiums go away (and thank goodness) and it gets closer to the release of other Red cameras.

Anyone?
Billy

 

[Martin Weiss]

Billy, right now there are about 3000 cameras out there, with 500 cameras more shipping each month. Maybe 10 cameras are currently for sale, some are asking for a premium. As Dustin Hoffman would say "This is nothing."

I doubt that the resale value will drop very much, as one can always return the RED One for full 17.500 USD credits towards the Epic.

I think you can sleep tight for now.

 

[Tico Llaurador]

You know what they say these days- "It's the economy, st_p_d!"

:sad:

 

[Tony Lorentzen]

Just a small note... The serial numbers shipping says nothing about how many camera that are out there... Some people haven't taken delivery yet and some might have canceled their reservations - so the number of cameras already out there might only be 2000 or 2500... only RED knows.

 

[Andrew Martin]

True. We will never know the true figure. Some of the recent sellers have been the ones that have been sitting on the fence since the beginning and their time is up that might be a factor - (not that there is anything wrong with that)

Andrew.

 

[Stefan Christou]

Last time I saw a Red for sale it was a lot more expensive than the retail price.

The mini was like that a few years ago. You could get on the waiting list as soon as you got delivery, and make a profit from selling your old car and buying a new one when your back at the front of the line.

 

[Billy Mead]

Ok then... we are s/n 4452 on track for Christmas and I did hear as well that may not be the actual number of cameras out there. Even still that is a very tiny number comparatively speaking.

So to continue to probe, when are there TOO many cameras in your valued opinion? 10,000, 20,000? All I heard for the first many, many months was “it’s only seventeen thousand bucks” (which we all know is far from the reality). Hopefully actually having to spend $30k + means this version remains somewhat exclusive. I don’t mean that in an elitist way, only from a business perspective.

In fact our model is provide equipment at modest and very competitive prices and our first RED rental package will be no exception. It’ll go out for hundreds less than the local competitors and I will get a lot of joy knowing up-and-coming filmmakers will be able to get their hands on a RED and make pretty pictures. And even more joy knowing I get to throw around a ‘told you so’ once and awhile to the boss (Mrs. Billy).

Billy

 

[Joel Kaye]

So to continue to probe, when are there TOO many cameras in your valued opinion? 10,000, 20,000?

There will be too many cameras when a less expensive camera does better. In the absence of a replacement the global marketplace can probably support very, very many REDs. Many of those may see limited usage.

If your local market has a bunch of REDs sitting on shelves they can't rent for even low prices then there are too many RED in your area and you should rent. LA is probably an area where renting is starting to make a lot more sense than buying.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Billy, Boston is an interesting market. Let's just say there is a bit of hesitancy in adopting the technology as of right now. I've actually rented more to out of state clients than in-state. This could change, but you'll notice other rental companies in the area have dropped the rental rate. I've gone out with the camera as a Data Management Tech so that has helped, as clients seem to appreciate having that person aboard, especially if things come up that the camera department can't solve.

The big studio won't big up and running until 2010, although production has certainly been picking up in the past couple of years and probably will continue to grow and then really take off when the studio does officially open its doors.

There needs to be more education about what Red can offer. I'm tossing around the idea of running another post production workflow event, like the one I did in Vegas. But this one would be more hands on. More bootcamp style, taking you through shooting with Red, and then posting the footage. As can be expected, people need to see to believe.

I don't think you'll be disappointed with Red purchase. Just wanted to give you a heads up about the current market. If you don't need it flying off the shelf everyday, you should be fine. And when everything starts to pick up, you'll be a good resource.

 

[Mark Thorpe]

Profiteers

Profiteers

Some people from the outset saw a possible profit in this purchase. Others have realized that they have bitten off more than they can chew and others, unfortunately, have seen business plans go tit's up with the current economic situation. I wouldn't worry about seeing this or more cameras available for sale. If your plan and finances are in the right place then no worries.

My 2c worth,
Mark.

 

[Ken Willinger]

Others have realized that they have bitten off more than they can chew

This is something Finner had brought up a long time ago. Many people jumped into Red coming from a mini DV background thinking it would be their ticket into the big time. They weren't thinking you need to have the client base first...and that the accessories costs could easily top the 17.5K to really outfit their kit. So I think many of those cameras are coming into the market.

As for the Boston market, two of our major rental houses have Red cameras. The rental of these units has been slow mostly because of workflow issues and the fact that as a user, it's not the type of camera you can just "start using". You have to know how the software works and navigate through the system settings, whereas for example an HDX900 can just be picked up and used without much prep. In most cases a DIT is needed on set with the Red. Not needed for HD tape jobs.

Red is a more complicated system all around for a newbie renter and can be somewhat daunting. So I think a lot of productions just say we'll go with what we know and not have to deal with learning the camera, dealing with raw data, and figuring out how to get it through an edit system.

As workflow matures we'll see more productions asking for it.

 

[Anthony Gratl]

I could do an awful lot with the $80k it’s going to cost (RED cameras, accessories galore).

As I have mentioned in other posts we rent cool stuff (rental house) but this will be our largest single purchase and it keeps me up at night. We will be able to successfully rent the package as we have a lot of glass too but I think we’ll be shipping a lot. While filmmaking has increased 10 fold (due to 25% Massachusetts tax refund checks) I doubt we’ll stay booked solid for awhile.

Also, I would think that the resale value could drop as premiums go away (and thank goodness) and it gets closer to the release of other Red cameras.

Anyone?
Billy

just from the tone of your post, i would suggest NOT investing 80 grand into this camera package. Try just the body and minimal accessories and your glass. You'll be able to do that for about 25k. Prudent shopping for accessories like MB's etc....also, if your market is the indi film market, they'll obviously appreciate the nikon glass possibilities......80k would keep me up at night too....but seriously, how did you as a caterer to the indi market come up with 80 as a number?

 

[Tico Llaurador]

As workflow matures we'll see more productions asking for it.

Exactly. To wit, I've been asked by a local production company here to demo the RED to a select group of execs next week. People have taken notice.

 

[Billy Mead]

Thanks again to everyone. The advice given here is about as good as it gets. I really was fishing for buyers remorse from anyone that was/is selling but it doesn’t sound like there is any. Which is great to hear... other than jobs not coming though and projects getting cancelled.

If you don't need it flying off the shelf everyday, you should be fine. And when everything starts to pick up, you'll be a good resource.

Steve, I think you are confirming what we had hoped… that there should be widespread interest after the honeymoon period and as the RED becomes a more mainstream option for shooting here in the North East. Not just visitors but locals as well. Also I think what you said about being able to sit tight just about sums up almost any business that’s an early adopter. And we’ve always planned to keep expectations realistic about rentals in the short term. I doubt we’ll be in any rush to get the package rented with any frequency and I’m actually looking forward to lot of testing and ‘play time’. Internally or as a contractor we need to have a DMT as a resource… this is a pretty far cry from renting out a 35mm adapter.

Red is a more complicated system all around for a newbie renter and can be somewhat daunting. So I think a lot of productions just say we'll go with what we know and not have to deal with learning the camera, dealing with raw data, and figuring out how to get it through an edit system.

We too will try and do our part in regards to training and education. Hosting seminars whenever possible and expanding our relationships with local school programs to include RED. Ken, if you had to guess are the renters now ‘jumping on the bandwagon’ or do they have justification for shooting with the RED system? I can’t begin to tell you how many people have asked about our upcoming delivery and when I ask why they want to shoot with the system 7 out of 10 say ‘because it’s a Red’! Maybe I should just assume to know what they mean

but seriously, how did you as a caterer to the indi market come up with 80 as a number?

Just trying to err on the side of caution. I probably (hopefully) exaggerated the number. But long after the hardware expense there is people that need to be trained, integration with our post facility, maintenance and repairs and then the plague of rental companies… keeping up with the Joneses and new accessories/features. We did outfit the first purchase with almost every available option and maybe that’s a mistake for the indie market… but as we attract bigger and bigger clients, just not having one major accessory can mean a lost rental.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Well, since you already have matte boxes, tripods, lighting, etc you are in good shape. The key accessories will be things like Element Technica's line of products and some of the other third party gadgets that really make the camera shine. Initially I would go for things like ET Arri baseplate, cheeseplate, drive shock mounts, Ultrarods, etc. You'll want lots of extra drives, CF cards, cables, Pro LCD, viewfinder, etc. It does add up quickly. I would say for one camera package, you could easily be looking at $40K with accessories. But then again, that's the cost of an HPX3000. So, not a scary number for a rental house. Especially since you can package everything with it and make it a really sweet deal.

Oh, and make sure to keep me in mind as a DMT

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

....but seriously, how did you as a caterer to the indi market come up with 80 as a number?

Just trying to err on the side of caution. I probably (hopefully) exaggerated the number. But long after the hardware expense there is people that need to be trained, integration with our post facility, maintenance and repairs and then the plague of rental companies…

It all depends on what you need to provide for. Myself I've spent well over 100K for each RED I have, but that includes lenses and stuff. As a rental you should be able to provide with a whole package as much as it's possible for you to do.

That means IMO camera + accessories (pro ones, like ARRI for example), lenses (not RED 18-50mm - sorry RED but I don't think it's a good lens for a rental house. For a single person YES, but not a rental), DIT station and playback system.... and then it continues with wireless HD transmitters, downconverters etc. The list gets long fast hahaha

Of course you don't need to get it all at once but I believe you should have the list above except for HD wireless.... when you start

You should also be able to provide for/ or recommend a DIT that's competent and knows the camera inside out. IMO the DIT should be a camera assistant who understands and knows how to do back ups from redcode and possibly do quick checks and looks out of for example REDCine. So far the DIT's that only been DIT's around the computer has not really done it for me. They should primarily be sorting the camera out and then when it's needed off load the CF or drives - just like a clapper loader with film, but that's just my humble opinion.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

You should also be able to provide for/ or recommend a DIT that's competent and knows the camera inside out. IMO the DIT should be a camera assistant who understands and knows how to do back ups from redcode and possibly do quick checks and looks out of for example REDCine. So far the DIT's that only been DIT's around the computer has not really done it for me. They should primarily be sorting the camera out and then when it's needed off load the CF or drives - just like a clapper loader with film, but that's just my humble opinion.

Very true. Must know the camera in and out, how to troubleshoot it if things go wrong, and be able to judge critical focus for giving the okay that a shot is good. Also should be fluent in FCP, Redcine, Red Alert, After Effects, and know how to read scopes. And need to be organized, be completely anal about the backup process, using tools like R3D Manager to ensure data integrity.

Shoots go much smoother when there is good protocol on set.

 

[Ken Willinger]

if you had to guess are the renters now ‘jumping on the bandwagon’ or do they have justification for shooting with the RED system? I can’t begin to tell you how many people have asked about our upcoming delivery and when I ask why they want to shoot with the system 7 out of 10 say ‘because it’s a Red’! Maybe I should just assume to know what they mean .

I'm no prognosticator and I've had many DoP friends here in Boston wish me luck having jumped into the Red boat rather than going with a Sony or Panasonic HD high end camera as many of them have done. Have I done paying jobs with it? Yes, I'm making some of the investment back. Am I continuing to outlay cash? Yes, Red outfitted properly needs a lot of accessories, not just Red accessories.

Am I renting other cameras for jobs? Yes. I'm also still working my Sony D600 16X9 betacam (rarely) and an HVX200 (with a 35mm adapter). And unfortunately in this current production climate, there is no standard. As an owner/operator you can't have everything!

It comes down to having a client base that trusts you and is willing to jump in. Some of my clients are ready and have. Some are on the verge. Some will never go there (I can't see my network clients who do the magazine shows ever using a Red camera unless we could get direct 1080 RGB out).

The clients that I have that have worked in film previously are more inclined to embrace Red than my video clients. They know what really beautiful film looks like and can see that the Red can get them there and possibly beyond. The video clients have never been there so have a hard time seeing it. Directors and producers who like pushing the envelope are more inclined to move in the Red direction.

 

[Martin Weiss]

Some thoughts on on-set duties

Some thoughts on on-set duties

Very true. Must know the camera in and out, how to troubleshoot it if things go wrong, and be able to judge critical focus for giving the okay that a shot is good. Also should be fluent in FCP, Redcine, Red Alert, After Effects, and know how to read scopes. And need to be organized, be completely anal about the backup process, using tools like R3D Manager to ensure data integrity.

Steve, for once I have to disagree with you - a bit. Having come from a film world, I never liked the idea of the DIT (btw, Ted would prefer the term DT) being an extra person for the camera crew. I very much support the idea of rather the Clapper/Loader getting new duties; away from the changing tent and to the laptop. But I doubt he will really need to be fluent in any of the post-production tools to be a good loader (or 2nd AC, or whatever term). Being able to read the scopes is really the DPs responsibility, and then the gaffers. If the Focus Puller understands them, that is an added benefit. But not the Loader... Also, it is not the Loader's job to judge focus - that should really be done by the Operator, the Focus Puller and as his extended eye someone sitting in video village.
The Loaders job in a film world was to always have fresh film in the mag, to hand to the 1st AC on demand. And to offload the exposed stock, put it into the cans, label them, do all the paper work at the end of the day, and supervise the shipment to the lab. In a Digital world this would mean always having fresh CF cards at hand, offloading shot footage and making redundant copies. Whether he should also be in charge of checking the technical quality of the footage is arguable - I think that should be left to someone specialized in that.
All the other duties of the Loader remain the same, f.eks. cleaning lenses, handing needed equipment to the Puller, and serving Coffee/Tee/Hot Chocolate.
Basically, I do not want to overload the Loader with duties - also, remember that this is the entrance position to the camera dep't.

 

[Stephen Williams]

also, remember that this is the entrance position to the camera dep't.

Hi,

The other 2 entry positions are P.A. & Director.

Stephen