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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Future cameras

rpshooter said:
Although Canon does have the power and technology to produce a true cinema camera and complete with Red. My opinon is that they never will. the simply don't care about such a small market. they want to create products for the masses and sell millions of units. Cinema gear is too specialized for Canon, it's not their market, plus they would only want to produce gear that used their own lenses. Cinematographers will always demand PL mounts and lens choices. Canon won't make it easy to take a Canon mount camera body and retrofit it for PL
Click to expand...

What makes you believe the market is small for a convergence camera with the software features cinematographers want?

I can imagine professional stills photographers will be increasingly called upon to provide both stills and motion. Sports, news, event, nature, and other categories will enjoy professional motion picture camera capabilities. These professionals and advanced amateurs are substantial in number.

I wouldn't count out Canon and Nikon in the lens arena. If full-frame 35MM becomes the favored standard, our precious PL lenses that don't cover the larger format will be challenged to say the least.

Will 35MM movie frame cameras become the "16MM" of the future as full-frame 35MM still format emerges at the favored choice?

That, ladies and gentlemen, is the question.

Keep in mind that storage capacity for large RAW files is rapidly advancing as costs plummet.

Higher, noise-free ISOs make the necessity for large aperture lenses unnecessary. The much larger sensor will take care of limiting depth of field as maximum apertures are smaller.

It shouldn't be hard for Nikon and Canon to produce lenses more suitable for cinema use.

Matte boxes and follow-focus units will undoubtedly appear and at the favorable prices mass merchandising allows.

Lastly, we can expect levels of automation we are unaccustomed to with current motion picture cameras.

History does not have a good record of rewarding those of the Luddite persuasion.

In five years what will we be shooting with? Red Omega? Nikon? Canon?

Whoever is making them, they are going to be remarkable tools for telling stories... and much, much more.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
 
I don't so much subscribe to the idea that DSLRs will replace traditional cine-style cameras, but I do agree that DSLRs do push the image quality and potential of "D(igital)-Cinema" forward with each new camera iteration.

However, long-term, viable "D-Cinema" cameras for everyday use in a professional environment would take into account this beginning list of requirements that are unrelated to image quality as determined by the internal electronics of a camera system:

1. Moving diopter/viewing system that allows for consistent, ergonomic operation.
2. Sturdy, reliable, industry-standard connections for the repeatable connection of camera accessories (matte box, rods, follow-focus, filters, large load/magazine, etc.)
3. Balanced and ergonomic body/lens design that allows for long, repeatable hand held takes with minimal fatigue to the operator.
4. Ability to mount and be used on all transport devices such as Steadicam, jib/crane, tripod/gear head, dolly, underwater housing, etc.
5. Shock-resistant to the forces inherent to moving a camera on any terrain with any given transport including hand held shots.
6. Reliable and quickly interchangeable power supplies (batteries) that facilitate the camera being "at the ready" at all times.
7. Ubiquitous, industry-standard replacement supplies for the inevitable loss and damage.

Again, this is simply a beginning list that has intentionally not included the topic of image quality. This is merely a list of what should be expected of any camera system that would be used daily in the professional production environment of features, commercials, documentaries, and television.

If "D-cinema" could be viewed on a scale, I believe the weight is, at present, quite decidedly on the side of image quality and resolution. However, at some point in the near future, balance will have to be restored on the side of making that image quality and resolution more mobile, reliable, and sustainable. After all, what good is the most advanced sensor if the battery to power that sensor is still charging, or the hard drive to capture that image is still offloading previously acquired footage? There are moments in visual storytelling--especially in documentary filmmaking--that only happen once, and I don't want to be caught waiting in a long bootup sequence while one of those moments is happening.
 
I think if I hear "it's only a tool" or "a paintbrush won't make you davinci" one more time I might have to go and drive-by shoot hundereds of people at the nearest macdonalds.

As much as I agree with the sentiment, I don't see why people feel the need to preach the obvious. This is tech forum, discussing the pro's/con's/development of the tools from Red. Some will succeed, a lot won't, but let them get on with it. I agree with Leo, it levels the playing field somewhat and gives opportunity to those who may not have had it.

Back to the topic.... I think there are a few people worried about their Red investment (maybe me too). But look at it this way, the reason Red could step in and really shake the market up was because companies like Sony and Panasonic did have a product line to protect. They can't just bring out a camera superior to the Varicam or F900 for £3000, even though it may well be possible technically. It would destroy their entire product line overnight. They are caught in a trickle of passing improvements down the line from the top models over years of development. Each model linked to the next.

Now, Red could find itself in the same boat. So the question is, do they hamper the DSMR/Scarlet simply to keep Red One owners happy, or do they continue to innovate and not let that worry them? Of course its sad news for me if in 2 years time a Red One equiv could be made for $3000, or something superior. But would you really want Red to make feature limited products to keep existing owners happier?

If it becomes cheaper to do, and to do it better, then I think Red will do it.
Red might decide to offer discounts or deals to previous Red One owners, but if they start to protect the Red One then they become a slave to their product line.
 
Smartin said:
...big T.. i don't understand your concern - you're totally right! that's the natural way it goes! but what are you loosing?

think of you're purchasing a bus ticket, you wait at the bus station while suddenly a friend pops up with his car and gives you a ride...
instead of being worried about the unnecessary purchase of the ticket
you can also just be happy about meeting your friend and do the jurney together..

sounds like 1968 philosophy - but that's how i see it...

martin
Click to expand...

only the 'bus ticket' cost you $17,500.

(or should we say $24k wt accessories and lens?)
 
Leo Ticheli said:
What makes you believe the market is small for a convergence camera with the software features cinematographers want?

I can imagine professional stills photographers will be increasingly called upon to provide both stills and motion. Sports, news, event, nature, and other categories will enjoy professional motion picture camera capabilities. These professionals and advanced amateurs are substantial in number.

I wouldn't count out Canon and Nikon in the lens arena. If full-frame 35MM becomes the favored standard, our precious PL lenses that don't cover the larger format will be challenged to say the least.

Will 35MM movie frame cameras become the "16MM" of the future as full-frame 35MM still format emerges at the favored choice?

That, ladies and gentlemen, is the question.

Keep in mind that storage capacity for large RAW files is rapidly advancing as costs plummet.

Higher, noise-free ISOs make the necessity for large aperture lenses unnecessary. The much larger sensor will take care of limiting depth of field as maximum apertures are smaller.

It shouldn't be hard for Nikon and Canon to produce lenses more suitable for cinema use.

Matte boxes and follow-focus units will undoubtedly appear and at the favorable prices mass merchandising allows.

Lastly, we can expect levels of automation we are unaccustomed to with current motion picture cameras.

History does not have a good record of rewarding those of the Luddite persuasion.

In five years what will we be shooting with? Red Omega? Nikon? Canon?

Whoever is making them, they are going to be remarkable tools for telling stories... and much, much more.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
Click to expand...

Once again, Leo shows himself to be one of the most thoughtful, knowledgeable and insightful posters at reduser.
icon14.gif


The best way to deal with the rapidly changing technology is to embrace it. After all, isn't that why we're all here? If you have Red One, you should be out shooting like a man on fire right now. If your Red is sitting on the shelf, send it to me, because I'm busy racking up a sh#tload of stock footage right now, and trust me, I can roll multiple cameras on nearly every shoot. :weight_lift:

Sitting around worrying about if your Red One is going to be outdated at some point is useless. Jim has already talked about a sensor upgrade next year, which will probably focus heavily on increasing dynamic range - and might include more than that.

The only way to know what is coming is to be patient, read the blogs and forums, and keep your eyes peeled. Why do you think Jim has completely turned on a dime and rethought both Epic, Scarlet and introduced the DSLR Killer? Because Jim knows enough to keep at the bleeding edge of technology.

If $5,000 DSLR comes out next year (Red, Canon, etc) that shoots freekin Vista Vision RAW at 60fps with amazing glass, then guess what? We all got our dream camera!!
 
2 years ago RED had nothing to lose :
- no product line to protect.
- no serious challengers in this price range.

Today :
Scarlet or DSMC don't have to compete too much with the Red One.
But they need to better than Nikon or Canon new cameras for a good price.
Tricky!

Stupid thought : Maybe RED should abandon Scarlet/DSMC and only go Epic...
 
try that while moving camera

try that while moving camera

Big T those dslr's may look impressive standing still but remember we are shooting moving pictures. Cannon has not resolved the " jellying" problems as far as i know so just be thankful you don,t have a room full of moviecams or 535's(also fantastic tools) things will change but this camera is remarkable. we are now shooting our third feature under a million and we could not be more pleased. thank you red!
 
Thanks guys,

All very valid feedback.

Leo's comments really put things into perspective. Very smart man.

At the end of the day, I will have all this gear paid off in about 12 months. The camera's probably even sooner. Lenses are the expensive part of this equation, but lucky for all of us, lenses never really date. My favorite lens is a 15 year old COOKE.

I don't hire anything out, but I will now... Why not.?

People pay a lot of money for great content and most don't care what you shoot it on. My company has strived from selling great visual content and never had to worry about tools. I'm not sure why I'm worried now to be honest.

So I'll just keep to my business plan, shelve the RED's when and if the time comes and use what ever hot product comes out in the near future.

This business model has worked very well for me for the last 15 years, I'm sure it will work for me for another 15 years.

Thanks again Guys (& Gals if any)

Your all very good people.
I needed a bit of a reality check.

movin on......
 
you did it again

you did it again

Image quality isn't everything, (but as cinematographers we love it) Content is everything.
Click to expand...

If content is everything, then image quality - or photography, for that matter - must be nothing. Zero.
(Which also logically leads to "Red is nothing", by the way).
This is all very wrong, of course, but here you go again with this story which is without foundation.
And again, and again... forever, eh?
:whistling:
 
Image quality isn't everything, (but as cinematographers we love it) Content is everything.
Click to expand...

just another bit of contradiction. "Content is everything"... and you dare to love what? image quality? are you crazy? Content will not be happy. Traitor.
 
Oh ye of little faith;

RED RENDERS OBSOLESCENCE OBSOLETE

Believe
 
I understand the concern about RedOnes. People like Peter started a thread to help address this issue also. I am more concern for the company than RedOne.
Tech/people are changing with the times now its up to Red to lead again. I don't understand some people who thought their RedOnes would make them millionaires and they wouldn't have competition because it was still out of reach with most. But I believe that it is not true to be fair to RedOne owners.
What is true is Red will continue to give free firmware updates and have hardware upgradeability! I want to thank Red and all RedOne owners who have paved the way for this technology and price reduction. :love:
 
I am a filmmaker who shoots plenty of stills... My Canon MkIII has been plagued with problems and issues as a whole. Moreover, Canon MkIII are still in limited supply. Yes it's coming but you guys are overestimating everybody's real capabilities including Red's. C'mon guys... Red production has only really ramped up in any stable quantity in the past several months. Epic, Scarlett, DSLR??? YEAH, SOON COME!!! Additionally, this economy will impact everybody's R & D as the current & upcoming quarters number's fall short... BIG.

Note- both Canon & Nikon are only including video on their "Prosumer" lines and not their flagship cameras. Pro still shooters are not going to deal or tolerate video features distracting still development and functionality... I think 1080P will be the goal over the next couple of years with the 1080P Rebel or G12 being the ultimate goal... I am pretty sure 2K & 4K images are not even being considered. A bigger threat is the Sony EX-2k Handicam!!!! However, I don't think Japan would do that... Their state of the art consumer displays are 1080P. So a $25K CineAlta???

So, the Red One is the revolution!!! The footage I have seen is simply amazing!!!! If you get paid for your films... owning this box is a no brainer now and into the foreseeable future. IMO an easy 3-4 years before it's really challenged and if we are lucky the challenge will be from Red and these guys will upgrade us at a reasonable price.
 
If I buy the 5D or ANY Canon/Nikon/Sony product (other then something like a Canon L lens), I'll have an obsolete piece of equipment in less then a year. Which is what is happening with my 40D when I get the DSMC (I just bought the damn thing too!).

On the other hand, with our Red Ones, we'll get a new sensor... and then another one, etc.

Also, keying is a good test, sure, but can the 5D file format hold up to some serious grading or image manipulation that a Red RAW file can?

Just my 2 cents.
 
The thing is, clients almost always want the latest and greatest.

Once Epic hits, even though a RED ONE will still be perfectly serviceable, most clients won't want to know about it.
 
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