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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Shoot 120fps Live Sports....question....

Chris Parker

Chris Parker

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I am going to be shooting a live indoor sporting event at 120fps using an Optimo 24 - 290 lens. Would also like to use a doubler on this lens at times.

I am wondering what ASA the camera is rated at when shooting 2K at 120fps.

Also, anyone else shot in a simliar situation. We cannot add light to this event, and will be using the arena's lights only. Will there be enough light to go 2K 120fps using that lens WITH a doubler??
 
I've used the Optimo 24-290 on RED One outdoors to cover sports. Without a doubler in daylight, at RED's default 320 ISO, as I remember, I shot most footage around T8. That was mostly 2k/113 fps/192 sec shutter because we were looking for glass smooth slo-mos.

I believe a doubler on the Optimo 12x would bring the minimum aperture up to around T5.6. If the arena is lit well, I would guess you'll have enough light to shoot the Optimo with a doubler in 2k/120fps. If it is smooth slo-mos you're after from that footage, a faster shutter speed will help smooth them out - maybe 192/sec.

Sports production has been one of my core areas for decades. PM or email me if you'd like more input on your shoot. I'll be happy to share some ideas with you.
 
Also remember, if you're thinking mm in terms of 35mm field of view, going 2K is already like putting a doubler on. However, if you're looking for a 580mm 16mmFOV then you'd still need the doubler.

Tim
 
Do a playback from camera on site to make sure you don't have any slow flicker issues you couldn't see in real time. Lit for broadcast sports fields tend to be around 5.6 @ 24fps @ 320 ASA. That would put you at 2.0 2/3 @ 120fps and an Optimo without doubler is only a 2.8. You can either go to 400ASA and live with a little extra noise or consider shooting at an "electronic shutter angle". With the Red it's possible to shoot at a 360 Degree shutter and gain that extra stop. The doubler will cost you a lot of optical quality and too great of a stop loss (2 stops) imho.
Since you're shooting 2K your 290 is already roughly a 580mm lens in 35mm field if view. If you need to be longer than that consider going to a Hawk 150-450mm T2.8 (beautiful lens btw). You could afford to stick a 1.4 x on there and get you to 630mm at only a 1 stop loss. I think you'll find yourself plenty long with the 290@ 2K though...

Another option would be to go to one of the monster broadcast zooms through a B4 adapter. I don't know too much about these lenses but I've read about the Fujinon's XA101x8.9BESM. It should cover 2K and goes 8.9-900mm and has a built in doubler that makes it a WHOPPING 17.8-1800mm lens... These are the so called "box lenses".

Good Luck.
 
In 2K I think you're far better off using a big long Super-16 lens instead of that monster Optimo. 12x is not a big deal in 16, and you can find some great sports & wildlife lenses at 33x or more, with no doubler in the system.
 
Change your shutter angle. Assuming you're in the US your light sources will be 60Hz. If you do get flicker at 120fps 180 shutter you have to go to 120fps 360 Degrees. Any combination that gives you a shutter speed that is dividable by 60 should work. Mitch's suggestion is also good. I don't know who carries these specialty lenses he's talking about though.
 
In the past 13 months of RED shooting, I've also had excellent sports footage results using my Canon FD 150-600 f/5.6 zoom at apertures between f/5.6 and f/11, and occasionally f/16. Depending on how well the arena is lit, that lens would also be an option. My 150-600 is stock, except for the addition of a Century PL mount. Re-framing and zooming is as simple as a pull or push on the left side lever, with racking focus quickly done by a twist of the same lever. Tracking fast moving sports objects/people with the Canon 150-600 is quite easy for experienced sports shooters. The 150-600 that is rented out by most rental agencies is the rehoused version that has gears and requires use of a follow focus or hand manipulation of all three of the lens functions individually, whereas the stock 150-600 has the advantage of having zoom and focus functions all in the same, quick to use knob. Things happen fast in sports production, so anything that can save you time and still get you the images you're after is something to consider.

Boosting the ISO to 400 or even 500 can be an option as Florian mentioned. In my experience RED One still doesn't have much noise at those ISO levels. Also as Florian mentioned, going to a 360 degree shutter will buy you some aperture space. If this event is televised a 180 degree shutter and filmic look isn't a necessary priority anyway.
 
580mm equivalent should be plenty long enough, assuming you have decent access to the playing area. I don't know if a doubler is necessary. Shooting professional sports is hard! Maintaining framing/focus is not easy.


Any chance you can get in to the facility beforehand to measure the light levels?

Hire good operators/assistants to fix any flicker issues. I would hope a professional sports arena would use high-frequency lights, but the Olympics didn't so who knows.

Remember that although you can shoot 120fps on the Red with a wide shutter angle, part of the slow-mo look is the crisp images you get from a shorter exposure time.

Also remember that you can only shoot 120fps onto drives. CF cards top out at 113.

I would think that for an event with lots of bright areas, for example hockey, you could get away with pumping up the ASA more than you could with lots of dark areas (football). The idea is that very little of the frame would be in the zone where grain shows up. I have some 120fps night-game football shot at 1000ASA I will show you on Friday. Totally broadcast quality - it looks like 16mm.
 
I receive some material coming from a soccer game. I was told that the settings in camera was 120 FPS at 180/360 "degrees". The proyect was 25fps time base.
When i playback the proxys in FC i have the player in front looking nice but the background have a lot of fillage. The result is disturbing. Then i render out to proress to look at a rendered footage but the problem remains...
Any sugestion?

thanks in advance...
 
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