CANON 5D-MKII - There is NO SKEW (not much)

[Daniel Browning]

The main problem is lack of RAW, in my opinion.

That's an understatement. If you were replacing a Boeing 747 with a Grayhound bus for transcontinental flights, it would be like saying "the main problem is the lack of airspeed velocity."

 

[Tom Lowe]

That's an understatement. If you were replacing a Boeing 747 with a Grayhound bus for transcontinental flights, it would be like saying "the main problem is the lack of airspeed velocity."

Ha ha, let's not overdo it! Back in the ancient stone ages (2 years ago), people had to shoot with pre-selected color temps, sharpness, limited color sampling, etc. It just feels like a slap in the face that Canon did not offer video with some kind of compressed RAW. After all, they are largely responsible for getting all of us (probably including Jannard) hooked on RAW shooting in the first place. :whistling:

 

[Daniel Browning]

Ha ha, let's not overdo it! Back in the ancient stone ages (2 years ago), people had to shoot with pre-selected color temps, sharpness, limited color sampling, etc. It just feels like a slap in the face that Canon did not offer video with some kind of compressed RAW.

I don't think you appreciate how difficult it is. Just reading 9 gigabits per second (21 MP, 14-bits, 30 fps) off the sensor and formatting it for file storage is one thing. Finding something to store it is even harder (think refrigerators). Then compressing it down to compact flash speeds (9000 mbps to 224 mbps) without losing important data is even harder.

The second difficulty is the sensor. Still sensors have it easy: they can forego the extra on-pixel circuitry needed to get fast read reset times, increasing their SNR due to a larger fill factor. That's just one design constraint, there are probably many needed (ADC generally increase in read noise as the readout rate increases, for another). There are so many sensor metrics to be concerned about: size, read reset speed, number of pixels, fill factor, sensitivity, full well capacity, read noise, manufacturing tolerances, defect rate, unit variance, and especially price.

Incidentally, these difficulties are the same ones that made everyone think that the RED ONE was a scam and the technology wouldn't be possible at the $17k price level for 3-6 more years, yet here we are.

Granted, converting a school bus into a 747 is an exaggeration of the difficulty, but you got my point. If Canon reads 9 gbps off their next DSLR sensor and offers a RAW port for it, that will be like slapping wings on the grayhound and shooting it into the air at 300 MPH. Figuring out the landing, cabin pressure, controls, reliability, etc. will be just a few of the challenges facing them after that (read-reset, compression, post-production, etc.).

 

[Adam Levins]

As I understand it it in movie mode you have no control over the ISO and shutter speed. Can others confirm this? hard to find concrete facts.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Well, the glass available for EF mounts is pretty f'ing good.

That's the key, premium quality glass that is pretty darn cheap. Besides all of Canon's L glass, I can use Nikon, Leica, Contax/Yashica Zeiss (great glass for even cheaper on the used market as virtually no one shoots contax. In fact virtually everyone buying Contax is putting it on Canon DSLRs). All it takes is a $20 adapter.

 

[Michael Hastings]

That's an understatement. If you were replacing a Boeing 747 with a Grayhound bus for transcontinental flights, it would be like saying "the main problem is the lack of airspeed velocity."

why is this such a problem? - Varicam, HDCAM, HDV, XDCAM, HVX - none shoot raw.

This isn't a RED Digital Cinema Camera - it is a 21MP great pro DSLR that also has an HDV/Prosumer type camera built in - but with 35mm DOF and easy access to a lot of great glass. Besides all of Canon's L glass, you can use Nikon, Leica, Contax/Yashica Zeiss (great glass for even cheaper on the used market as virtually no one shoots contax. In fact virtually everyone buying Contax is putting it on Canon DSLRs). All it takes is a $20 adapter.

 

[Tom Lowe]

This reviewer almost blew a gasket he likes the 5Dm2 so much...

IMAGE REMOVED DUE TO COPYRIGHT

1. The 5D MKII camera produces the best stills in low light that I’ve ever seen - what you can see with you eye in the worst light (such as sodium-vapor street lights at 3 a.m. in Brooklyn) - this camera can capture it with ease.

2. It produces the best video in low light that I’ve ever seen - at 1080p. A top commercial film editor who who regularly edits RED camera footage - and has seen the raw footage from the 5D MKII - says the 5D MKII is “far superior to the RED camera” in terms of low light performance…

3. You can use your prime and zoom lenses from your Canon still cameras with it - and shoot wide open… so you can shoot films with fisheye lenses, 50mm 1.2 as well as the 200mm f2 or 400mm 2.8 that you may already own…

4. This camera is so easy to use - that you can work incredibly quickly, mostly handheld - without a huge production - and using natural light - ergo you don’t need a huge budget and tons of preparation anymore… forget the lighting trucks and generators that take up entire city blocks…

5. This camera will sell for approx. $2,700 - and perform better than many $100K plus video cameras out there…

6. Photojournalists in particular - will be able to take full advantage of this camera’s strengths - because they are used to walking into any room, and finding the best natural “available light” in the room - or knowing how to add a single light source to make it pop… they are used to working quickly and with small or no budgets… which is something this camera is begging you to do…

It has the potential to change our industry.

Link:

http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/09/20/something-very-interesting-is-comingboth-to-this-blog-and-to-our-industry/

The ISO 6400 stills I have seen from the 5Dm2 are pretty damn amazing.

 

[jaadgy akanni]

why is this such a problem? - Varicam, HDCAM, HDV, XDCAM, HVX - none shoot raw.

This isn't a RED Digital Cinema Camera - it is a 21MP great pro DSLR that also has an HDV/Prosumer type camera built in - but with 35mm DOF and easy access to a lot of great glass. Besides all of Canon's L glass, you can use Nikon, Leica, Contax/Yashica Zeiss (great glass for even cheaper on the used market as virtually no one shoots contax. In fact virtually everyone buying Contax is putting it on Canon DSLRs). All it takes is a $20 adapter.

Considering the points you're making here-and perhaps the following question should have a thread of its own, but: Doesn't it seem like the Canon 5DmkII would be more desirable than SCARLET? 35mm DOF, use of variety of great glass, shoots 1080p, etc. If I had money only for one camera, why SCARLET and not this?

 

[Tom Lowe]

Considering the points you're making here-and perhaps the following question should have a thread of its own, but: Doesn't it seem like the Canon 5DmkII would be more desirable than SCARLET? 35mm DOF, use of variety of great glass, shoots 1080p, etc. If I had money only for one camera, why SCARLET and not this?

Scarlet will shoot RAW, but yeah, you kind of have a point. Which is probably why Jim and everyone at Red seem so excited about their "DSLR Killer", which will probably have specs far better than this 5Dm2, especially in terms of video recording.

 

[reality]

http://i34.tinypic.com/1e2juu.jpg

What's up with the strange spiky flare on the lower left?

I'm anxious to see how h264 4:2:0 and 8bits per channel holds up on the 5d2. It's just so wrong to shoot anything but raw on a pro dslr.

 

[Tom Lowe]

What's up with the strange spiky flare on the lower left?

I'm anxious to see how h264 4:2:0 and 8bits per channel holds up on the 5d2. It's just so wrong to shoot anything but raw on a pro dslr.

You mean camera-right? It looks like car headlights, to me.

So the video is H264 4:2:0 8bit?

How does it actually work? Does Liveview come through the full sensor, with the mirror raised?

 

[jbeale]

Look at the last 10 frames of Canon's long-lens road footage here:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/movies.dpreview.com/CanonEOS5DMarkII/MVI_5500.MOV

The camera is nominally locked down for the full take, but the image shifts slightly sideways in the last ten frames (I presume as someone presses the "off" button.) During that shift you see the "jello image" skew effect, which is very obvious.

 

[pango]

Full sensor

Full sensor

You mean camera-right? It looks like car headlights, to me.

So the video is H264 4:2:0 8bit?

How does it actually work? Does Liveview come through the full sensor, with the mirror raised?

Yes. And there is where you see that the form factor is very bad, because then you cannot use the eye viewfinder (as will be the case with the Micro FourThirds cameras with a fast 900K electronic viewfinder).

Nobody knows though, whether pixels are grouped for liveview readout or wheather just a subset of the pixels are sampled, which would result in heavy Moirée artefacts, which we have yet to see. I have not seen Moirée artefacts from the many D90 videos out there on vimeo (but heavy skew on all of them).

The question of the actual rolling shutter speed of the 5D II remains unanswered: Better than D90, worse than RED, but where exactly in the
unusable (D90) - usable - non-existent (CCD Camcorders) spectrum?

 

[Daniel Browning]

I have not seen Moirée artefacts from the many D90 videos

I haven't either, but I think that's because none of them have pattern detail at the right frequency. But I have seen is aliasing, so Moire is sure to follow.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Video = Orange Marmalade. (Jelly)