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Shooting Documentary with Red One

E

Ege Eden

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Hi Folks,

I am about the put my order for Red One and I'm
wondering if I'm making the right move...I have found
a producer to finance my project but I won't be
able to buy more than a Red One package with the
necessary equipment, a Mac Book Pro (to check
the footage and do some preliminary editing) and A Mac
Pro (to finish the project)...

My question is: is it possible to shoot a 4k and 2k (slow-mo scenes)
project and finish it without the help of third party
hardware components as my budget won't really allow me?

I have been following this blog for some time and I'm confused
by the different possibilities for workflow (ex. scratch cine)...
 
Biba said:
Yes you can finish your project only with 1 MacPro , but you will have problems with CC . Minimum you need HD monitor + IO bourd. And if you are good in CC you will finish it .
It will take big time for render , but it will work .
Click to expand...

Would Apple's HD Display Screen work?

I don't mind the rendering times...I just don't want to compromise
from Red One's image quality without bringing in a third party
hardware, and to solve the problem within mac system...without
downsizing the image...
is there another reason why CC would be hard? Wouldn't apple color
be enough?
what's an IO board by the way?

thanks for your response...
 
Biba is talking about an AJA or Blackmagic HD card most likely. It's so you can monitor your footage in the correct color space on a broadcast monitor from Sony/Panasonic/JVC/etc. Apple HD LCD screen will NOT show you the correct color space and therefore when you look at it on a TV, most likely the colors will be off and the picture will either be too bright or too dark.

Matthew
 
Pajo - perhaps you should rent the camera package and free up some funds that could better serve your project than owning a RED?

No offense or elitism intended -
 
you can use the apple cinema display, but it's not really a good substitute for a color accurate monitor..

try and swing some extra budget for finishing.. it'll be worth it.
 
I carry a MacBook in the field to manage files and check footage.

It is not fast enough to process the footage, or handle native 4K, or to transcode 4k into broadcast. You can edit the small quicktime proxies.

You need a big, fast, multicore desktop to handle real post. If your budget is that tight, shoot on XDCAM or P2. Post is much easier (and can happen on a laptop) because of the smaller files. If it's for broadcast, it looks fine. You need a real monitor to judge color.

The Red is sexier and produces amazing images, but it is bigger, heavier, slower to use. On a limited budget, there are many pretty good options. Digital Cinema is cool, but requires pretty stout post hardware. I suppose you could offline on the laptop, and finish post in a facility. Make sure that's in the budget if you go 4k.
 
whether buying or renting the camera, you still need to pay a person to run with a tape and measure anything you would like to focus, and then another person who, with this data, pulls the focus. And, oh yes, all the lenses must be perfectly collimated otherwise this is all useless.
One olympic runner.
One professional focus puller.
Always three tickets, three hotel rooms, three everything.
Because, you know, this is a professional cinema camera.
And you don't want to make a movie for nothing like everyone. You love to spend 3 times; ask Shawn.
 
BUT seriously, apart from the traditional focus thing, the camera is really second to none for it's image quality.
My brother and I love it for the image quality, that we believe it's higher then 35mm film. With the added benefit, possibly, of typical 35mm depths of field.
If you are comfortable with the way of focussing, you would be extremely happy with it's result.
Best wishes.
 
Pajo, I think there are probably a lot of people doing exactly what you are planning to do with great success. I am planning something very similar - initially at least. Personally, I would not allow any force on earth from stopping me acquiring the Red.

Are you able to do a small test run before committing yourself to allay concerns?

Rob
 
focussing

focussing

Tetsuo said:
whether buying or renting the camera, you still need to pay a person to run with a tape and measure anything you would like to focus.
Click to expand...

If you're used to dslr focusing, if you can adjust back focus properly, if you can focus a dslr manually, you'll nail focus with your red all the same. Now, if your project is likely to use some on-set type scenes, with complicated camera moves, etc., you'll need a focus puller, true...
 
Back Focus is not big problem with RED , because you don not need special eq to calibrate back focus , you can do it on screen . (Check Youtube for it)
Also about CC , About FC Color - Yes you can finish it in Color , but better to do this job in minimum Luster with DPX . After 7 mounth with camera for me CC is main position in PostProduction .
 
oh yes, be sure...

oh yes, be sure...

Pajo Takamatsu said:
Hi Folks,

I am about the put my order for Red One and I'm
wondering if I'm making the right move.....
Click to expand...

...that the absence of a sleep mode, power consumption, extra load of batteries will not be too much of a limitation for your project... I ordered my red one a full year ago in the hope that such a basic feature would necessarily be implemented some day, if the red one was to be used out of stage for documentary purpose, although I admit that no promise about it was ever made by red people. I have received my red without that feature, and I fear I might well have judged wrong :-(

My mistake, if so. Nothing to do with the dedication, availability, overall outstanding service quality Red people have always been demonstrating in whatever business I have been engaged with them. A totally new world, I must say.
 
Pajo,

You can do it all on your lap top if you wanted to.
We have done heaps of ad's on RED, We performed color grades off a 24 and 30 inche apple monitors. You just have to set the gamma to 2.2 when you calibrate them.
Work flow is easy, Use the 2k or 1k quick times and correct them in RED ALERT if you need more from them. Other than that, FCP grading tools are fine.
All of this is very simple, we do it on daily basis without any hiccups at all.

Check out Griffith University on our web site, Finished in 2k for Cinema and 1k for TV.
All done using a 8 core MAC and my laptop.
So easily edited (did most on the plane as I flew around the world), easily graded, easily finished... No tape in sight, all data, all the way to a Cine lazer print and TV release.
No gamma problems, no color problems. Looks perfect every time.

So simple, Like using a P2 on steroids.:biggrin:
 
I second Big T. I am working on a laptop and on an iMac. It´s imbearably slow, but works. I would buy a 2TB HDD to back up the media with your macbook. Also there are solutions below the price of a very expensive HD solution. You can check www.dieagenten.de (hope you speak a little german here :-) They are suggesting EIZO monitor with calibration hardware and AJA converter.

I would definetely NOT take a cinema display for judging a project. You can also edit the whole movie in FCP medium res and then go to a posthouse for finalizing.

What has not been said: the body of your Red is just a fraction of what you will need to spend. It is a very good idea to rent first before you decide. Red is a professional device to compete with industry standards and must be treated like that. For a documentary it might work with a zoomlens. For fast ENG/EFP style this is not the camera you would want.
 
Markus Rave said:
I second Big T. I am working on a laptop and on an iMac. It´s imbearably slow, but works. I would buy a 2TB HDD to back up the media with your macbook. Also there are solutions below the price of a very expensive HD solution. You can check www.dieagenten.de (hope you speak a little german here :-) They are suggesting EIZO monitor with calibration hardware and AJA converter.

I would definetely NOT take a cinema display for judging a project. You can also edit the whole movie in FCP medium res and then go to a posthouse for finalizing.

What has not been said: the body of your Red is just a fraction of what you will need to spend. It is a very good idea to rent first before you decide. Red is a professional device to compete with industry standards and must be treated like that. For a documentary it might work with a zoomlens. For fast ENG/EFP style this is not the camera you would want.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what kit is going to be bought for this mans DOCO.. Yes red is expensive still if your going to tool up big, yet at the same time, you can shoot with RED with a RED ZOOM on it for just under 40k.. So your correct in saying it's not just the camera.

In a laptop situation I edit using the 1k files. I reconnect media to 2k when I'm on a 8 core desktop machine.
Nothing is wrong with a 1k project as well. still about 95% of the worlds content is still 720 pixels across. 1k is heaps for a doco.

We grade without compromise almost everything on APPLE 30's (calibrated of corse) , Our work has never been questioned by any TV station, any film out print company, nobody.
So the paranoia about having and expensive Calibrated CRT or LCD over a Calibrated APPLE 30 is a myth. Like I said, we do this daily and our work goes into POST HOUSES daily with no problems with color or GAMMA.

Me personally, I would not use a RED for long winded DOCO if I had not much money, Id use a straight video camera like a Sony PRO HVCAM or PRO P2, CANON XLH1 etc, one lens, easy use. What you see is what you get. In jest it, cut it, out it goes. cheap and easy and most of them have Mic's attached.

What I was saying is that shooting a RED and using its footage is as easy as using a P2.
Posting in your laptop or on your 8 core is easy and we do it in house daily. NO big post house required.
You don't have to go to a post house to ONLINE or to finish a RED job. I only go to a post house now to get big effects done and maybe to put the finished project onto a HDSR tape.

At the end of the day RED is "Piss Easy" to use and to post. Don't scare people away from RED because your scared of it.

My kids are working on RED footage in there bedrooms, they are only 11 & 16, its so so simple.

In short, I agree with you that bang for buck RED is not really a good choice for PAJO with a budget DOCO in mind.
but I disagree that you need a calibrated monitor and a post house to finish you projects.


ooops... My 3 minute RENDER is done, gotta go.
 
Rob Castiglione said:
Pajo, I think there are probably a lot of people doing exactly what you are planning to do with great success. I am planning something very similar - initially at least. Personally, I would not allow any force on earth from stopping me acquiring the Red.

Are you able to do a small test run before committing yourself to allay concerns?

Rob
Click to expand...

Oh man,
I think the same way...but I won't have a focus puller or anything...
just a sound recorder and me...that's my crew...and that's the only
way I can shoot it because the story is a tough one...

I will have a month before me to test the camera...so
it should be fine...

good luck to you with your dream, man!
I wish you the best...
 
buhot said:
If you're used to dslr focusing, if you can adjust back focus properly, if you can focus a dslr manually, you'll nail focus with your red all the same. Now, if your project is likely to use some on-set type scenes, with complicated camera moves, etc., you'll need a focus puller, true...
Click to expand...

oh I don't have any complicated scenes, just
stable shots with interviews...
 
Biba said:
Back Focus is not big problem with RED , because you don not need special eq to calibrate back focus , you can do it on screen . (Check Youtube for it)
Also about CC , About FC Color - Yes you can finish it in Color , but better to do this job in minimum Luster with DPX . After 7 mounth with camera for me CC is main position in PostProduction .
Click to expand...

can you open this up a little more biba? If I have a monitor and a AJA card
would be enough for primary and secondary CC?
that's what I'm originally planning of I won't be able to get a good deal from a post-house...
 
Big T said:
Pajo,

You can do it all on your lap top if you wanted to.
We have done heaps of ad's on RED, We performed color grades off a 24 and 30 inche apple monitors. You just have to set the gamma to 2.2 when you calibrate them.
Work flow is easy, Use the 2k or 1k quick times and correct them in RED ALERT if you need more from them. Other than that, FCP grading tools are fine.
All of this is very simple, we do it on daily basis without any hiccups at all.

Check out Griffith University on our web site, Finished in 2k for Cinema and 1k for TV.
All done using a 8 core MAC and my laptop.
So easily edited (did most on the plane as I flew around the world), easily graded, easily finished... No tape in sight, all data, all the way to a Cine lazer print and TV release.
No gamma problems, no color problems. Looks perfect every time.

So simple, Like using a P2 on steroids.:biggrin:
Click to expand...
thanks for the heads up Big T!

all i have been hearing up to now with a few exceptions like
yours, is that I should have this much men on set and
this much additional equipment, which I totally understand and
respect...but there must be a guerilla way of doing things
even though for a theatrical release...all I had was my
will and heart now I have some money that I want to invest
in red for its quality...and seems like I'm gonna do so...

your work looks really good by the way...

cheers man...
 
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