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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The more things change the more they stay the same.

Evin Grant said:
Denan,
What's up with Apple? I see news from everyone else but. I'm very excited about the Premier stuff but I was really hoping to have native support for Color by now. Has apple really given up on Pro Apps? I know you can't answer this but it sure feels like it.
Click to expand...

How disappointing is it that since the initial release of color, Apple have basically done nothing to improve it... the years go by and it seems less and less likely that anything is going to be updated or fixed. I guess all the good developers were stolen by the iphone division. :unsure: Meanwhile Adobe offers red support with what seems like only a few month's effort.
 
Bruce Allen said:
I was simply disputing your "current popular workflows" rebuttal, which included RedCine -> Avid DNxHD.

That workflow is not current and popular because it doesn't work yet.

But you advertise it on your web page.



Can't someone just write a wrapper using your SDK? Eg, a temp quicktime codec that simply calls the SDK functions for the decode. Doesn't need to be realtime. Seems pretty simple to me. Then suddenly we'd be able to import on Avid on the PC.

Can I write it?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Click to expand...

Actually, I said ProRes or DNxHD (via compressor, RR, RC, RL, or via the wrappers into Media Composer): meaning it's possible to go to ProRes or DNxHD using a bunch of different methods.

And yes, transcoding to prores or dnxhd is the more popular method and we have way more visibility into what people are using.

You can certainly use the SDK to write any transcoder you'd like. Doing that would be better than complaining about the same arrow on a diagram over and over and over for a codec we have no control over (or go bug Michael to release the codec to you early).
 
Evin Grant said:
Denan,
What's up with Apple? I see news from everyone else but. I'm very excited about the Premier stuff but I was really hoping to have native support for Color by now. Has apple really given up on Pro Apps? I know you can't answer this but it sure feels like it.
Click to expand...

A different perspective... It took us a while to learn this but it's really true in alot of companies and not just apple.

We're so used to cranking out releases really quickly and adding features constantly, that we've expected everyone else to be the same way. The truth is that when you have years and years of developed code it makes it really challenging to add a completely new workflow and color pipeline (raw has a whole new set of requirements to tie metadata back to the camera and alow it to be modified through the process, plus the wavelet proxies, etc).

Add on top of that the amount of testing a big company has to do to release something and the cross testing involving a 100 other unrelated features, the implications are staggering.
 
Where A Mac based company

Where A Mac based company

Deanan said:
<SNIP>

It's been always clear that we're a mac based company and mac support would be ahead of PC support. All development work happens first on the mac and then it takes time to port everything 'reliably' while at the same time supporting constant camera and codec changes.
Click to expand...

Hmm so why are ADOBE doing the running. When is the big announcement from Apple? I mean they aren't even at IBC
 
ibloom said:
4. Finner still thinks bitching is a good way to solve problems.
Click to expand...

Ha ha ha ha ha....... OUCH.

Finner just likes to shake the tree a bit and see what falls out; you should know that by now Ian. Hope things are well with you.
 
Deanan said:
You can certainly use the SDK to write any transcoder you'd like.
Click to expand...

Okay, will do. I am signing my life away as we speak. Once I get back from my Japan shoot, I will start coding unless things have moved forward.

Deanan said:
Doing that would be better than complaining about the same arrow on a diagram over and over and over for a codec we have no control over (or go bug Michael to release the codec to you early).
Click to expand...

You guys do have control over that arrow though! All you need is a little asterisk saying "pending codec update from Avid" on your marketing page and you'd never hear anything from me.

Avid does not have any gigantic Red workflow diagram adverts on their site, so I don't see why I need to bug them to live up to their advertising.

You understand that this is all about the disconnect between Red marketing and Red reality, right?

Red in reality is amazing. Red marketing promises amazing PLUS ONE. And amazing PLUS TWO real soon now (which keeps getting pushed back).

For anyone who doesn't like being lied to, this will always be a problem. No matter how amazing your product is.

Sorry, maybe this is a cultural thing. I have similar beef with Apple, but lots of people in America love them. The English generally take a slightly more dim view of their marketing (the advertising standards authority is always taking them to task), because they take being lied to in adverts very seriously. That's my cultural background, and I'm not compromising on it, however much I like Red, sorry.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Bruce Allen said:
You guys do have control over that arrow though! All you need is a little asterisk saying "pending codec update from Avid" on your marketing page and you'd never hear anything from me.
Click to expand...

No one is lying to you Bruce. We try in every case to be honest with the customers and do what's best to customers. I've dealt with many companies who are nowhere near as close to our dedication to the customer. To say that we're lying to you is an insult to everyone at red that has been working 7 days a week for the last few years often well past midnight (Jim included), for the customer.

And, if you want to know all about the arrow, that diagram was created so long ago that it was when people were outputting tiffs from redcine to ingest into avid and premiere. There's nothing there that says anything about DNxHD. So, the diagram is still valid. :tongue: :tongue: :tongue:
 
Finner said:
So I have been away for a bit but 3 things seem to consistantly remain the same.

1. The Red One produces amazing images.

2. A post solution that does not make the editor wish to commit harakiri is just around the corner.

3. The birger mount is shipping next week.

Please feel free to correct me on any of these as I may have missed some important new announcements.

Cheers All

Daren
Click to expand...

something new: birger answers emails
 
Deanan said:
No one is lying to you...I've dealt with many companies who are nowhere near as close to our dedication to the customer. To say that we're lying to you is an insult to everyone at red that has been working 7 days a week for the last few years often well past midnight (Jim included), for the customer.
Click to expand...

That's the kind of response we like to hear; your conviction and diligence are what have made the RED into the dream machine/company it is. I know I speak for most everyone when I extend the deepest gratitude for all your time and efforts. Like so many others, I am in awe of what your team has accomplished in such a relatively short amount of time.

Now that that's said, I also understand what you're saying Bruce, but I would not hazard to think the guys are being intentionally misleading.
 
Film Ylem said:
Now that that's said, I also understand what you're saying Bruce, but I would not hazard to think the guys are being intentionally misleading.
Click to expand...

Red do have a habit of hyping something up way too early and then we hear nothing for months... sometimes the absence of comment leads to assumption... which leads to more assumptions. :blink:
 
Geez Bruce...

I can go look at *any* manufacturers' website and find stories that are stretched a bit here and there. It's called marketing and PR. The same thing is true with cars, computers, can openers, refrigerators, and nonfat yogurt.

There is *nothing* misleading or wrong about "the arrow." RED is making no performance claims, or even specifying a format there. It could be TIFF files. It could be MJPEG Quicktimes. And in the text below, they say DNxHD Quicktime. Yes, that works with certain specific versions of the codec and with specific versions of the software.

Molehill != Mountain.

Lucas
 
Evin Grant said:
I have the perfect solution!
An R3D codec for the iPhone!
Then we'll see some development.
Click to expand...

hahaha ... so true.
well, also so sad.

as a pro i feel a lot abandoned by Apple.
guess i'll have to start migrating to Nuke and leave my beloved Shake.
Never imagined i could abandon a sw i was so happy about ... also i was planning to seriously learn color, now i'm wondering if it's worth.
Doesn't even work in HD with my Aja IO HD ...
 
My thoughts

My thoughts

This is not about Adobe moving faster. It's about each company's business model and how it's affecting development. (Valde this is not aimed at you, lots of people are saying this, I just happen to be following your post)

Apple, Avid and Adobe. Of the three, Apple is the most diverse. In other words, as many of you have already noted, the flavor of the month at Apple is the iphone and ipod. These two things have REALLY overpowered the computer division. But the bottom line is that while Apple may have jumped in bed with RED early on, that does not mean they intend to STAY there, or continue with the same intensity they did back at NAB '06.

Apple and Avid are similar in that they are both running on closed business models. In other words they have a large firewall between their products and the rest of the world. Prores is Apple's baby, so you get all the wonders of real time this and that as long as you use their codec (Cineform also get's some realtime work here, but they do not have access to the "guts" of FCP).
I would not be surprised that, rather than support R3D files better, they COMPETE with R3D files (and others) by increasing Prores to a 4:4;4 16bit RGB codec. They are more LIKE Microsoft than different from it.

As for Avid it's DNxHD.

Adobe is an open system. They have been for a long time. It's what allows company's like Cineform (And now RED) to write their plugins so effectively. When Adobe "supports' RED it's a good thing, but remember, they support everybody. It's not Adobe that's moving fast, it's Rob Lohman and Co writinig code for a program that's not "getting in their way" and getting help from Adobe when needed.

So you are right in that Adobe is doing more than Apple, but it's because Adobe's "BUSINESS MODEL" allows the developers the ACCESS to get things done. Apple does not.

Another factor is that Adobe and Avid depend on their editing software (And in some cases hardware) to make their livings, so they will take a much more aggressive stance with developement.

A while back you may remember a letter from the President of Avid stating that they were listening to their customer's needs and planned to open their system up to others. Now the details of this remain vauge, but if the mucky-mucks at Avid are serious in this then it will be a game changer.

I'm not speaking so much about R3D files. As much as I love the potential of REDCode, it's a CAMERA codec. That means it's only use to me is what I have shot with the RED. No, what I am speaking of is Avid's apparent desire to open to a number of platforms. If this happens, then it would mean we'd have all the advantages of THE industry standard editing system, while enjoying the open workflow we get with Adobe.

If Avid does this, then everyone around them will be shaking in their boots.

Avid was the leader for a long time, and I think they have had their "come to Jesus" moment. As long as they take the path they KNOW they must take, then the playing field for "the big three" will be very different in one year.

As for RED and post. Adobe is going to kick Apple's butt in terms of support for REDCode because while the guys at RED will have to sit on their heels waiting for Apple to get things done, they will be able to move almost resistance free on the Adobe side.

This is kind of a tough position for RED, after all they came out of the gate with Apple because Apple took them seriously early on. There's some loyality there on the part of RED. That said, Apple's BUSINESS MODEL is going to make it hard for RED to get things done at the speed they want too. But if support runs ahead for Adobe, leaving all you FCP users in the dust, then RED is in the not so popular position of having told people early on "if you want support in editing, buy a mac". It was true, Apple offered the earliest support for R3D files of all of them.. What remains to be seen however, is if they offer the BEST support of these files.

Thank God for BootCamp.

Given all the bugs in Color, the fact that it's support of deep color is spotty at best, and it's closed business model, I am guessing Adobe is about to get very popular. Until Avid catches up.

Jay
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
This is kind of a tough position for RED, after all they came out of the gate with Apple because Apple took them seriously early on. There's some loyality there on the part of RED. That said, Apple's BUSINESS MODEL is going to make it hard for RED to get things done at the speed they want too. But if support runs ahead for Adobe, leaving all you FCP users in the dust, then RED is in the not so popular position of having told people early on "if you want support in editing, buy a mac". It was true, Apple offered the earliest support for R3D files of all of them.. What remains to be seen however, is if they offer the BEST support of these files.

Thank God for BootCamp.
Click to expand...
Great post, Jay. The only thing that should be clarified is that Adobe's upcoming Premiere on CS4 will run on OSX as well as in Windows. People that have already bought a Mac system need to merely change editing software. No need for Boot Camp.

Otherwise, spot on.
 
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