FCP COLOR 2K DPX Workflow

[DFTPATRICK]

I'm doing some tests with Red Camera and Apple Color for a feature film that I will be doing post on. I'm running into an issue where everything works fine up until I send back to FCP. Here is the workflow I've been using:

• Process R3d files to Prorez (HQ) via Automator actions utilizing Red Alert/Redline (version 3.5.0).
• Cut offline sequence in Final Cut Pro (version 6.0.3).
• Export XML for Crimson, export EDL for Color.
• Import XML into Crimson, export from original R3d files to DPX 2K files with 1 second handles.
• Import EDL into Color, link to DPX files and start grading.
• Render out of Color to Uncompressed 4:2:2 QuickTimes (1920x1080).
• Send back to FCP.

The results vary depending on handle length designated in Color.

• Without adding a handle length the resulting sequence picture matches up to offline picture but timecodes are off by one second.
• With adding a one second handle length the resulting sequence picture is off by 1 second but timecode matches.

 

[Uli Plank]

Why don't you stay in ProRes? Hard to see a difference in Color.

 

[Michele Gavazzeni]

Import EDL into Color, link to DPX files and start grading.

are you sure that a this point the timecodes aren't already off?

Why don't you stay in ProRes? Hard to see a difference in Color.

What?... so in your experience grading a 422 file is like grading non chroma downsampled file?

 

[Uli Plank]

As long as you don't use very critical keys/color-based secondaries: Yes.
And my comment was related to Apple's Color, not a DaVinci, Pogle or whatever ;-)
IMHO, one should adapt the whole workflow to the level of the tools. DPXs in Color are a PITA!

 

[Patrick Tresch]

• Import EDL into Color, link to DPX files and start grading.

Hello,

Color always tags DPX as 24p. If you shot in another timebase do following :

-Grade the DPX in a 24p Color project and then render them to QT in 24p.
-Use CinemaTools wich is included in the FCP bundle. Import the rendered QT and conform them into the timebase of your originals (25/30...) there is no transcoding needed it's an instant process.
-Import in FCP the conformed QT.

Does that help?

PATRICK

 

[Ben Rojas]

I'm doing some tests with Red Camera and Apple Color for a feature film that I will be doing post on. I'm running into an issue where everything works fine up until I send back to FCP. Here is the workflow I've been using:

• Process R3d files to Prorez (HQ) via Automator actions utilizing Red Alert/Redline (version 3.5.0).
• Cut offline sequence in Final Cut Pro (version 6.0.3).
• Export XML for Crimson, export EDL for Color.
• Import XML into Crimson, export from original R3d files to DPX 2K files with 1 second handles.
• Import EDL into Color, link to DPX files and start grading.
• Render out of Color to Uncompressed 4:2:2 QuickTimes (1920x1080).
• Send back to FCP.

The results vary depending on handle length designated in Color.

• Without adding a handle length the resulting sequence picture matches up to offline picture but timecodes are off by one second.
• With adding a one second handle length the resulting sequence picture is off by 1 second but timecode matches.

Please keep this thread up-to-date my friend 'cause I'll be checking in regularly. I too am cutting a film but because of the rush to get the rough cut done for festival submission, I'll worry about finishing later. I'm cutting with the 2K QT Ref. files and other than it being a bit slow for my tastes, so far, so good. The little experimentation I've done w/exporting XML & EDL's, I'm leaning toward grading the most troublesome scenes in REDCine and color correcting w/Color via: FCP XML to Crimson to REDCine to DPX to Color and finally back to FCP. The DPX route is the one that concerns me but I'll cross that bridge when I get there... And hopefully this thread will answer any issues that pop up.

 

[Florian Stadler]

Uli

I have done side by side tests of prores and dpx color correction in Color and the difference is staggering. When used correctly Color is a very powerful tool and all you are doing with your dismissive attitude is expose your lack of skills.

 

[Uli Plank]

I don't like your tone, Florian, but please post some examples. I don't dismiss Color, it can deliver great quality, but working with it on DPXs is like swimming in molasses. My workflow is first-light in RA/RR and final correction in Color on ProRes, and I get very pleasing images.

 

[reactor]

Hi Nomad,

What problems are you having with DPXin color? I would be keen to know, We use it all the time, but we finish in Pro Res 422 (HQ) . It's a very nice mastering codec but we didn't like the results when pushing Pro Res in Color Correction. We get fast turnaround using EDL ->monkey extract ->Color>FCP to tape master. This is a DPX workflow but gives awesome results!

 

[Steven Parker]

The results vary depending on handle length designated in Color.

• Without adding a handle length the resulting sequence picture matches up to offline picture but timecodes are off by one second.
• With adding a one second handle length the resulting sequence picture is off by 1 second but timecode matches.

I've been seeing similar things happen as well, there seem to be gremlins in the handles function when sending XMLs around. I was using 12-frame handles (no Crimson here, just FCStudio) and all shots were exactly 12 frames off and the handles never rendered.

One thing to try is Export XML from Color, rather than Send To FCP; then Import XML into a new FCP project. Then you can Copy/Paste the corrected clips into your final timeline. You should probably have no other projects in FCP open until you get the Color sequence in. Apparently there are still a lot of resource conflicts and crashing if you have too many timelines open in FCP.

Hope that helps

 

[Nigel Stanford]

Monkey Extract was developed for this very workflow - FCP to Color. It uses EDL, I'm not sure if that will help get you around the 1 second problem but we've never had any issues.

 

[Uli Plank]

I'm observing two problems with DPX files in Color:
- The limitation to 24p is annoying, Apple should have fixed this long ago. After all, Color can handle other frame rates and the information is in the headers. In Europe it's very important to have 25p too.
- It seems that numbered frames are not handled as well as QuickTime files, the system is far less responsive on the same hardware.

If you see disadvantages of ProRes is very dependent on how far you want to push your colors. In a two step workflow as I described, ProRes is up to the task if you just do the "sweetening" in Color. Nevertheless, I'd like to see native support of RED files in Color rather today than tomorrow for full creative freedom.

 

[Michele Gavazzeni]

And my comment was related to Apple's Color, not a DaVinci, Pogle or whatever ;-)

So if the same settings are used in Color or DaVinci (the primary tools are the same in all grading suite) the resulting image will be different ?

 

[Uli Plank]

Not necessarily – DPX stays DPX, other than the issues we observe with QuickTime in different software. But the higher-end systems will be much faster…

 

[Michele Gavazzeni]

But the higher-end systems will be much faster…

that's another point

You said that there is no advantage in grading DPX files over ProRes in Color.

Why don't you stay in ProRes? Hard to see a difference in Color.

And that is simply false since DPX retains all chroma resolution while ProRes downsample to 422 .

Than you said that the problem is software

And my comment was related to Apple's Color, not a DaVinci, Pogle or whatever ;-)

Meaning that if you grade DPX file in an other system other than Color the difference is visible.

And that's is false too.

Not necessarily – DPX stays DPX, other than the issues we observe with QuickTime in different software. But the higher-end systems will be much faster…

Yes but that being faster is more hardware dependent.
With a proper system Color can be fast enough and the "Much Faster" becomes simply Faster.

And that is not always a reason to justify a 150.000$ suite for any reason

What is completly wrong is informing people that an aggressively priced software gives worst results than a super expensive (software and hardware) suite

The best software for grade footage in my opinion is AfterEffects
the problem is that if you have 30sec or 60sec commercial its OK but grading a full 120min film with it.... simply doesn't work

 

[Uli Plank]

With a proper system Color can be fast enough and the "Much Faster" becomes simply Faster.

And that is not always a reason to justify a 150.000$ suite for any reason

What is completly wrong is informing people that an aggressively priced software gives worst results than a super expensive (software and hardware) suite

The best software for grade footage in my opinion is AfterEffects
the problem is that if you have 30sec or 60sec commercial its OK but grading a full 120min film with it.... simply doesn't work

As I already wrote, I don't want to put Color down – not at all, it's a godsend for many projects with limited ressources.

Maybe my statements were too short and over-simplified, so I could be interpreted just the other way round. I did NOT want to say: "Forget Color and go for a 150K suite." I wanted to say: "If you are limited to Color and a not very fast RAID (or maybe even less), there are good reasons to stay in ProRes and not go though the hazzle with DPX."
I still consider this justified, given a careful workflow with a first-light correction before conversion to ProRes and not too aggressive grading in Color.
But, sorry, regarding AE I can't really subscribe to your suggestion. I find Color Finesse very cumbersome. Or are you referring to other tools?

As soon as Color does support native R3D files in all frame rates and an USB-controller for a decent price, it will be an awesome tool!

 

[Michele Gavazzeni]

I don't use CF but simply curves levels and hue&saturation
this are the same parameter that grading softwares use with a more pleasing interface

 

[teo]

I have figured out a solution how to import DPX from RedCine to Color at 25 fps:

At first when you export from Final Cut Pro XML for Crimson Workflow, export also EDL list.
When you reconform in Crimson and RedCine, do first light in RedCine and render DPX in separate folders.
In color import EDL, set all fps to 25 and choose DPX render directory for your Media Folder.
After import it will work in DPX at 25fps!

I hope I have helped someone!


I have now other question with Color and DPX:
Why if I open DPX in color it looks diferent (with a lot of contrast)? If I open same file in Shake or Aja DPX translator it looks the same like was exported from RedCine. Is there a problem with LUTs? Why if I don't use them.
I would really like to manage my workflow to 2K DPX at 25. This would be the best picture quality for Color and the best thing for my clients.

Thank you for replys!

 

[Florian Stadler]

You need to check "override header settings" in the Settings 2 tab at the bottom right. The most flexible way to grade I've found is to output RedLog and apply the standard LogtoLin LUT (thanks mmost!)

 

[Jason Ing]

Uli

I have done side by side tests of prores and dpx color correction in Color and the difference is staggering. When used correctly Color is a very powerful tool and all you are doing with your dismissive attitude is expose your lack of skills.

florian, can you post some comparisons? i'm really curious to see this difference.